|
Post by Jeremy on Apr 19, 2018 18:39:00 GMT -8
Good point about The Shield and Justified. . If this final season turns out to be a classic, this show will have followed Justified's trajectory almost exactly: good-but-not-great first season, followed by three brilliant seasons, followed by a disappointing penultimate, then finishing with another brilliant season. Interesting. Personally, I feel like the show is somewhere in between them in terms of quality (with The Shield at the bottom and Justified at the top)-I've always thought it was *slightly* overrated by critics. I know the creators said it's a show about marriage at heart, but my biggest problem was that the The Americans: The Domestic Drama was far less compelling than The Americans: The Spy Thriller. I've never really cared for straight 'prestige dramas' like Mad Men or Boardwalk Empire, so it's no surprise that it was my least favorite part of the show. See, I find the domestic aspects of the show to be much more interesting than all the spy/Russia stuff. The depiction of the Jennings family - particularly the Elizabeth/Paige relationship - is among the most vivid and nuanced anywhere on TV. It's kind of a shame that the rest of the show usually falls into the "pretty good" category, since it can make some of the spy material rather tedious. (Plus, the wigs were way better on Alias.) And whoa, did you just say that Justified is a better show than The Shield? I could see the argument for it being better than The Americans, but ain't no one touching Vic Mackey.
|
|
|
Post by ThirdMan on Apr 19, 2018 22:34:24 GMT -8
And that includes me, as I've never watched an entire episode of that show, and will likely never get around to it. I've considered Justified, but going forward, I think I'm gonna limit myself to shows that ran for five seasons or less. Everyone's got some blind spots w/r/t the arts, and I can live with mine.
|
|
|
Post by Incandescence 112 on Apr 20, 2018 5:24:41 GMT -8
Good point about The Shield and Justified. . If this final season turns out to be a classic, this show will have followed Justified's trajectory almost exactly: good-but-not-great first season, followed by three brilliant seasons, followed by a disappointing penultimate, then finishing with another brilliant season. Interesting. Personally, I feel like the show is somewhere in between them in terms of quality (with The Shield at the bottom and Justified at the top)-I've always thought it was *slightly* overrated by critics. I know the creators said it's a show about marriage at heart, but my biggest problem was that the The Americans: The Domestic Drama was far less compelling than The Americans: The Spy Thriller. I've never really cared for straight 'prestige dramas' like Mad Men or Boardwalk Empire, so it's no surprise that it was my least favorite part of the show. See, I find the domestic aspects of the show to be much more interesting than all the spy/Russia stuff. The depiction of the Jennings family - particularly the Elizabeth/Paige relationship - is among the most vivid and nuanced anywhere on TV. It's kind of a shame that the rest of the show usually falls into the "pretty good" category, since it can make some of the spy material rather tedious. (Plus, the wigs were way better on Alias.) And whoa, did you just say that Justified is a better show than The Shield? I could see the argument for it being better than The Americans, but ain't no one touching Vic Mackey. Well, you have to admit that the show needs the spy stuff-otherwise you end up with Season 5. Also, yes I did. Mathematically, Justified has 4 great seasons out of 6. The Shield has 2 great seasons out of 7. Okay, Season 5 of Justified is pretty boring. But so is The Shield Season 1.
|
|
|
Post by Jeremy on Apr 20, 2018 5:36:33 GMT -8
Au contraire. To my mind, Justified has one truly great season - its second - and two or three other seasons that are pretty solid. The Shield has two all-time great seasons (fifth and seventh), and two or three really good seasons besides. Plus, it doesn't hurt that it's got the best series finale ever made. And that includes me, as I've never watched an entire episode of that show, and will likely never get around to it. I've considered Justified, but going forward, I think I'm gonna limit myself to shows that ran for five seasons or less. Everyone's got some blind spots w/r/t the arts, and I can live with mine. Alias has only five seasons! And only a little over 100 episodes. Practically a weekend binge.
|
|
|
Post by otherscott on Apr 20, 2018 6:14:23 GMT -8
I also think The Shield is better than Justified, but only slightly and only because the endgame of The Shield blows the endgame of Justified completely out of the water. If you were to pull up a random episode midway through the run of both shows, I think the chances are that the episode of Justified will be slightly better. That said I'm almost always lower on FX shows than the general populace. American Crime Story is maybe the only exception I can think of off the top of my head.
JC has kind of touched on something I've been thinking about lately - that most shows just run too long, even these cable ones. The only show that ran more than 5 seasons and didn't feel like it was out of gas at any point to me was Mad Men, and even that one I'm a bit of an outlier because I love Season 6.
For instance I've been finishing up The Sopranos lately and I have two episodes to go, and I kind of stick by what I said at the end of Season 5. The season is mostly great so I guess I can't complain too much, but it really felt like the show came to its natural end with "Long Term Parking" as kind of a penultimate episode and this season is just re-emphasizing the same points that Season 5 had made, though with a slightly different frame and inciting point. Maybe "out of gas" is overly harsh, but the necessity of it all other than the fact it's still great television is limited. (And maybe that sentence in itself is pretty stupid.)
It's just tough in the business model to get out at the right time, shows are keeping people employed and if they're doing well ratings wise and putting money in the creator's pocket, it's tough for them to just say "nah, we're done." Which is probably why it's a good thing that shows like Deadwood and The Leftovers were left short, even Freaks and Geeks to an extent works really well at the length it is.
So I stay somewhat on topic, I've started watching shows in one burst (not necessarily binge watching as it still takes me a few weeks for a season but more focussed watching) so I'll get to The Americans in a few months.
|
|
|
Post by Jeremy on Apr 20, 2018 6:45:55 GMT -8
It's not that Season Six of The Sopranos feels unnecessary - it just falls victim to the season-splitting (or penultimate-season) problem that has since plagued Breaking Bad, Mad Men, The Shield, Justified, and now The Americans. Networks like to keep successful shows around, even through contractual loopholes, and some of these shows wound up with story fatigue as they neared their end.
Of course, it's near-impossible to plan out the number of seasons you want your show to make, since in the end, you don't even know if it'll last that long. It's all up to the ratings gods.
|
|
|
Post by otherscott on Apr 20, 2018 7:03:58 GMT -8
I would say The Sopranos is much less victimized by that than the other shows you mentioned. The two half seasons are long enough to be seasons on their own, and they feel like that, even moreso than Mad Men did. I would even say that the first half season gets an unnecessarily bad rap, with a season theme and ending that pays that off. The second half is a little abrupt in its proceedings, but I would say that's because it was more concerned with being a series wrap up than something with its own motivation.
I do struggle a bit with my thoughts on The Sopranos, it's a show that's clearly in my top 5 I think, I'm just not sure whether it's number 2 because it's smarter than any show that's ever aired, or lower because emotional connection and just plain caring about what's happening is sometimes a little difficult.
And yes, obviously your show can get cut off at any time, part of me just wishes that more creators would take the opportunity and be honest with themselves and say "I really only have good material for another 8 episodes" rather than trying to stretch lesser ideas into more seasons.
|
|
|
Post by Incandescence 112 on Apr 20, 2018 7:18:58 GMT -8
Au contraire. To my mind, Justified has one truly great season - its second - and two or three other seasons that are pretty solid. The Shield has two all-time great seasons (fifth and seventh), and two or three really good seasons besides. Plus, it doesn't hurt that it's got the best series finale ever made. Ok, it has three great seasons (2,4,6-just like the old Star Trek movies)-fixed it for you. Its third is really good, and the first is pretty good. The Shield Season 5 and 7 are masterpieces, and Season 2 is really good, maybe great. The others, though? Pretty good. They all have flaws, though. The first feels far too much like a typical bland cop show. The third is very unfocused. The fourth is extremely slow and doesn't play to the show's strengths, and the sixth is just wheel-spinning before the big climax. To quote a certain someone, the finale is pretty much the greatest thing ever to flicker across a cathode ray tube, but that doesn't mean that the show itself was consistently at that level. It wasn't. It did have the structure of a Shakespearean tragedy, which definitely elevated the whole story, but sadly, the flaws remain.
|
|
|
Post by Jeremy on Apr 20, 2018 9:11:53 GMT -8
I would say The Sopranos is much less victimized by that than the other shows you mentioned. The two half seasons are long enough to be seasons on their own, and they feel like that, even moreso than Mad Men did. I would even say that the first half season gets an unnecessarily bad rap, with a season theme and ending that pays that off. The second half is a little abrupt in its proceedings, but I would say that's because it was more concerned with being a series wrap up than something with its own motivation. I dunno - I think much of Season 6A could have easily been trimmed. Cut out the Vito and Italy stuff, fold the Kevin Finnerty material into one episode, trim a couple of Meadow/AJ plots, and there goes the wheel-spinning. I think Season 6B benefits from its shortened run, but there was no non-financial reason to bloat the whole thing to 21 episodes. Ok, it has three great seasons (2,4,6-just like the old Star Trek movies)-fixed it for you. Its third is really good, and the first is pretty good. The Shield Season 5 and 7 are masterpieces, and Season 2 is really good, maybe great. The others, though? Pretty good. They all have flaws, though. The first feels far too much like a typical bland cop show. The third is very unfocused. The fourth is extremely slow and doesn't play to the show's strengths, and the sixth is just wheel-spinning before the big climax. To quote a certain someone, the finale is pretty much the greatest thing ever to flicker across a cathode ray tube, but that doesn't mean that the show itself was consistently at that level. It wasn't. It did have the structure of a Shakespearean tragedy, which definitely elevated the whole story, but sadly, the flaws remain. I think the show's aggregate power should also be considered. The reason S5 and S7 of The Shield are so well-regarded is not merely for their own merits (though there are plenty of those), but because of the way they reflect on the series as a whole. "Family Meeting" retroactively makes the entirety of The Shield more powerful and memorable, once you see what it was all building to. Seasons of Justified don't build on each other in quite the same way, and the finale doesn't hve nearly the same impact. Also, Dutch and Claudette >>> Tim and Rachel.
|
|
|
Post by Incandescence 112 on Apr 20, 2018 9:23:22 GMT -8
I would say The Sopranos is much less victimized by that than the other shows you mentioned. The two half seasons are long enough to be seasons on their own, and they feel like that, even moreso than Mad Men did. I would even say that the first half season gets an unnecessarily bad rap, with a season theme and ending that pays that off. The second half is a little abrupt in its proceedings, but I would say that's because it was more concerned with being a series wrap up than something with its own motivation. I dunno - I think much of Season 6A could have easily been trimmed. Cut out the Vito and Italy stuff, fold the Kevin Finnerty material into one episode, trim a couple of Meadow/AJ plots, and there goes the wheel-spinning. I think Season 6B benefits from its shortened run, but there was no non-financial reason to bloat the whole thing to 21 episodes. Ok, it has three great seasons (2,4,6-just like the old Star Trek movies)-fixed it for you. Its third is really good, and the first is pretty good. The Shield Season 5 and 7 are masterpieces, and Season 2 is really good, maybe great. The others, though? Pretty good. They all have flaws, though. The first feels far too much like a typical bland cop show. The third is very unfocused. The fourth is extremely slow and doesn't play to the show's strengths, and the sixth is just wheel-spinning before the big climax. To quote a certain someone, the finale is pretty much the greatest thing ever to flicker across a cathode ray tube, but that doesn't mean that the show itself was consistently at that level. It wasn't. It did have the structure of a Shakespearean tragedy, which definitely elevated the whole story, but sadly, the flaws remain. I think the show's aggregate power should also be considered. The reason S5 and S7 of The Shield are so well-regarded is not merely for their own merits (though there are plenty of those), but because of the way they reflect on the series as a whole. "Family Meeting" retroactively makes the entirety of The Shield more powerful and memorable, once you see what it was all building to. Seasons of Justified don't build on each other in quite the same way, and the finale doesn't hve nearly the same impact. Also, Dutch and Claudette >>> Tim and Rachel. First of all, true but: Boyd >>> Shane and Art >>> Aceveda/Billings/Monica. Second, good point, but it doesn't add as much as the show being consistently amazing. I also think that how much an ending affects your enjoyment of a show varies from person to person. For me, not that much, even though I think it's super important to its overall quality.
|
|
|
Post by Jeremy on Apr 20, 2018 9:37:27 GMT -8
Honestly, I didn't find Justified to be consistently amazing, or at least more consistently than usual with prestige dramas. In fact, I'd say The Shield is more consistently entertaining, even if the highs of its early seasons may not equate with the highs of Justified's. But yes, how the ending impacts a show is a matter of taste.
And I'll concede Art, but not Boyd over Shane. Shane's arc in The Shield is fantastic, and Goggins' performance as the character grows and deepens is one of the best of the show.
|
|
|
Post by otherscott on Apr 20, 2018 10:53:10 GMT -8
I dunno - I think much of Season 6A could have easily been trimmed. Cut out the Vito and Italy stuff, fold the Kevin Finnerty material into one episode, trim a couple of Meadow/AJ plots, and there goes the wheel-spinning. I think Season 6B benefits from its shortened run, but there was no non-financial reason to bloat the whole thing to 21 episodes. Okay I get what you're saying now, not that the splitting was inherently bad but that the extra episodes that were possibly a consequence of the splitting wasn't great. And that's true, though in fairness The Sopranos seasons all had their detours, and to me Season 6A felt like a more focussed and coherent whole than say, Season 4. What is the "Italy stuff" though? Are you thinking of Carmela's trip to Paris?
|
|
|
Post by Jeremy on Apr 20, 2018 11:31:02 GMT -8
Oops. Yeah, I meant Paris. Been a while since I've watched The Sopranos; I just remembered Carmela went to (insert name of European country).
|
|
|
Post by Incandescence 112 on Apr 20, 2018 12:25:08 GMT -8
Honestly, I didn't find Justified to be consistently amazing, or at least more consistently than usual with prestige dramas. In fact, I'd say The Shield is more consistently entertaining, even if the highs of its early seasons may not equate with the highs of Justified's. But yes, how the ending impacts a show is a matter of taste. And I'll concede Art, but not Boyd over Shane. Shane's arc in The Shield is fantastic, and Goggins' performance as the character grows and deepens is one of the best of the show. True. But Boyd is way more entertaining to watch. He's honestly one of the best tv characters ever. Shane's a really good character, but Boyd's an amazing one.
|
|
|
Post by Jeremy on Apr 20, 2018 13:49:55 GMT -8
I guess I was never into Boyd the way a lot of other fans were - too often, it felt like the show was stretching to find ways to keep him around.
But in any case, I think we can agree that Walton Goggins is an amazing actor.
|
|