Quiara
Grade School
Posts: 775
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Post by Quiara on Jun 4, 2019 16:22:26 GMT -8
Interesting. The typical issue that keeps people away from Friday Night Lights is that they have no interest in football; your issue is that you have too much interest. I think I was a bit bugged by the football aspects when I first started watching, but quickly got over that feeling, as the show is accessible on many levels beyond its portrayal of sports. (Heck, a lot of the show's messages about life in America are even more resonant in 2019 than they were when it first aired.) It's almost definitely the best network drama of the 21st century, even factoring in that deeply flawed second season. Way to sell your own show short! (Don't tell me West Wing isn't 21st century TV. Don't be like Toby.)
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Post by Jeremy on Jun 4, 2019 17:16:24 GMT -8
Okay, best network drama to debut in the 21st century. Better?
(Though given that FNL has four great seasons out of five, while TWW has four-and-a-half great seasons out of seven, I do think you could make the case for FNL being the better show overall.)
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Quiara
Grade School
Posts: 775
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Post by Quiara on Jun 4, 2019 17:30:38 GMT -8
Okay, best network drama to debut in the 21st century. Better? This made me realize I should have watched LOST instead of Breaking Bad. But not really.
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Post by otherscott on Jun 4, 2019 17:39:18 GMT -8
When Jeremy declares something the best network drama of the 21st century I do have to keep in mind that he's famously a noted LOST hater.
In terms of LOST or Breaking Bad, I think Breaking Bad is probably a better show...slightly. Though I do waffle on that from time to time. But LOST is definitely the one I prefer watching old episodes of, and has a format that kind of is in my wheelhouse more than Breaking Bad is. I'll always go episodic over completely serialized.
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Post by Jeremy on Jun 4, 2019 19:01:02 GMT -8
For the eight dozenth time, I am not a Lost hater. That show was excellent on Season One, sometimes good in Seasons Two and Three, and very good in Seasons Four and Five.
However, I am famously a noted Season Six hater. So your post was about 17% correct.
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Post by otherscott on Jun 5, 2019 6:18:14 GMT -8
I haven't celebrated Troll Jeremy Day for a few years now and need to get my digs in every now and then.
And yes, Season 6 is a little sub-standard for the show and the worst Lindelof season by a reasonably significant margin. I still like the finale quite a bit though, but then again I'm more positive on finales of almost every show. (Imagine there's a subsection of people who believe The Sopranos finale is a bad episode.)
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Post by Jeremy on Jun 5, 2019 15:06:55 GMT -8
Jeremy, I thought you'd pick The Good Wife, but I suppose Seasons 4, 6, and 7, and parts of 3 and 1 prevent that. This was on the Whatcha Watchin' thread, but I think you meant to post it here. Had The Good Wife ended with Season Five, I think you could make a case for it being the best network drama of the 21st century. But those last two seasons really kill a lot of the show's momentum, with most of main characters losing what once made them appealing. And even without those last two years, Good Wife still has its faults - only two great seasons (S2 and S5), even if the other early years are quite solid. (And hey, Season Four is quite good once you get past the horrible Nick Saverese arc.)
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Quiara
Grade School
Posts: 775
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Post by Quiara on Jun 5, 2019 15:49:42 GMT -8
(Imagine there's a subsection of people who believe The Sopranos finale is a bad episode.) I mean, The Sopranos wasn't built around a central myth/mystery in the same way LOST ostensibly was, so I get that disappointment.
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Post by Incandescence 112 on Jun 6, 2019 13:13:40 GMT -8
Jeremy, I thought you'd pick The Good Wife, but I suppose Seasons 4, 6, and 7, and parts of 3 and 1 prevent that. This was on the Whatcha Watchin' thread, but I think you meant to post it here. Had The Good Wife ended with Season Five, I think you could make a case for it being the best network drama of the 21st century. But those last two seasons really kill a lot of the show's momentum, with most of main characters losing what once made them appealing. And even without those last two years, Good Wife still has its faults - only two great seasons (S2 and S5), even if the other early years are quite solid. (And hey, Season Four is quite good once you get past the horrible Nick Saverese arc.) I did indeed! That makes sense. I didn't even watch past Season 5. It was such a great season that it seemed silly to sour the ending with the somewhat notorious final two seasons. But I would say FNL has two great seasons as well-1 and 4. 3 and 5 I really like, but I wouldn't call them consistently excellent, and 2 is terrible. But it's still a brilliant show (those two seasons are a bigger part of the show than The Good Wife's), and a worthy pick for the best network drama of the 21st century (if you were the ultimate arbiter of tv quality, which let's be honest, you kind of are).
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Post by Incandescence 112 on Jun 6, 2019 13:19:31 GMT -8
For the eight dozenth time, I am not a Lost hater. That show was excellent on Season One, sometimes good in Seasons Two and Three, and very good in Seasons Four and Five. However, I am famously a noted Season Six hater. So your post was about 17% correct. Season 6 is a terrible ending, I'm in total agreement with you there. However, I think Season 4 is the best. "The Constant", Jeremy. "The Constant"! Regarding the Breaking Bad v Lost thing that Scott brought up, Breaking Bad is better, but it's not like it's perfect. Season 1 (and I would argue, parts of Season 2) is just kind of there-doesn't really do much for me, the under-developed supporting characters, the aforementioned cartoonishness of the later seasons, etc-all of those things kind of irritate me, even beyond my own personal qualms with the series (I can't see myself ever watching it again-its suffocating bleakness and reliance on hairpin plot twists probably diminish its re-watch value for me), despite its many staggering accomplishments. Every show has its ups and downs-even though Lost's problems are a lot bigger.
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Post by Jeremy on Jun 6, 2019 17:31:59 GMT -8
On Friday Night Lights, fair enough. S1 and S4 are certainly the show's best years. But that doesn't diminish the fact that S3 and S5 are still better than most other network dramas in the modern era. It's an incredible show, and with the broadcast networks moving more mainstream with each passing year, it's doubtful they'll produce something quite like it ever again.
for comparison, look at This Is Us. That's another NBC drama which champions character relationships and emotional impact. But where FNL feels natural and organic, TIU often feels manufactured and manipulative. It's working hard to contrive situations that make you cry in ever episode. Friday Night Lights never had to work - it earned its big emotional moments. ("There's a hole in my bucket...")
On Lost, yeah, S1 and S4 are the best seasons. (Are you sensing a pattern here?) I have no issues with people calling Season Four the show's peak - at the time I first watched it, I actually agreed. But looking back years later, the first season was the freshest, a compelling survival/mystery drama with strong, believable characters. And it wasn't nearly as convoluted as the five seasons it spawned, which is kind of nice.
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Post by Jeremy on Jun 12, 2019 17:10:46 GMT -8
After giving it many deep seconds of thought, I have picked the best network dramas of the 21st century. (Including only shows that debuted in 2000 and beyond.)
1. Friday Night Lights - Sweet, moving, funny, and heartfelt, this stands as one of the best TV dramas ever, regardless of network or streaming service. A glorious slice of Americana, even factoring in that ill-advised second season.
2. The Good Wife - Fizzles out in the last couple of years, but few shows have explored as wide a range of topics in as smart or satisfying a manner. Solid on an episodic basis, too.
3. Lost - Crazy and ambitious, at times to a fault. The peaks of this show are spectacular, even if it has some pretty low valleys.
4. Hannibal - Gorgeously shot and brilliantly acted, though it eventually disappeared up its own butt.
5. Veronica Mars - Great mystery noir, with S1 an all-time highlight.
6. American Crime - Not a "fun" show by any stretch, but a deeply effective one. S2 is one of my favorite TV seasons of this decade.
7. Gilmore Girls - Not entirely a drama, but very good at dramatic storytelling and world-building. Later seasons bring it down a couple of spots, though.
8. The OC - No masterpiece, but smarter than its reputation, and the two bookending seasons are a blast.
9. Firefly - Brief but occasionally brilliant.
10. 24/Grey's Anatomy (tie) - I don't love either of these shows, but they were quite good in their early days, and both have been massively influential for TV at large.
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Post by otherscott on Jun 13, 2019 6:09:18 GMT -8
Did you ever watch Fringe, Jeremy? That's the only show I can think of off the top of my head that would certainly make my list but is not found on yours.
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Post by Incandescence 112 on Jun 13, 2019 7:32:56 GMT -8
Did you ever watch Fringe, Jeremy? That's the only show I can think of off the top of my head that would certainly make my list but is not found on yours. I like Fringe, but I know many people feel it went downhill after Season 3. Seasons 4 and 5 were both in this decade, so maybe that influenced Jeremy's opinion? If we were counting best shows of 2009-2011 (2010 in particular), Fringe would certainly be way up there. The back half of Season 2 and the front half of 3 are some of the best sci-fi television ever.
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Post by Incandescence 112 on Jun 13, 2019 8:22:28 GMT -8
After giving it many deep seconds of thought, I have picked the best network dramas of the 21st century. (Including only shows that debuted in 2000 and beyond.) 1. Friday Night Lights - Sweet, moving, funny, and heartfelt, this stands as one of the best TV dramas ever, regardless of network or streaming service. A glorious slice of Americana, even factoring in that ill-advised second season. 2. The Good Wife - Fizzles out in the last couple of years, but few shows have explored as wide a range of topics in as smart or satisfying a manner. Solid on an episodic basis, too. 3. Lost - Crazy and ambitious, at times to a fault. The peaks of this show are spectacular, even if it has some pretty low valleys. 4. Hannibal - Gorgeously shot and brilliantly acted, though it eventually disappeared up its own butt. 5. Veronica Mars - Great mystery noir, with S1 an all-time highlight. 6. American Crime - Not a "fun" show by any stretch, but a deeply effective one. S2 is one of my favorite TV seasons of this decade. 7. Gilmore Girls - Not entirely a drama, but very good at dramatic storytelling and world-building. Later seasons bring it down a couple of spots, though. 8. The OC - No masterpiece, but smarter than its reputation, and the two bookending seasons are a blast. 9. Firefly - Brief but occasionally brilliant. 10. 24/Grey's Anatomy (tie) - I don't love either of these shows, but they were quite good in their early days, and both have been massively influential for TV at large. Hannibal Season 3 left such a bad impression on me that I would really struggle to place it up there. Season 2 would have been the perfect place to end it. Firefly, of course, is pretty darn good. I still have yet to watch American Crime and Veronica Mars, though both are near the top of my list. The Good Wife is pretty great at its best-shame that the final two seasons would seem to dilute its quality.
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