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Post by Incandescence 112 on Nov 25, 2021 21:24:19 GMT -8
JC--"Asteroid Blues" isn't the most gripping pilot ever, I don't think, but I think it's well done and is a pretty good example of what the show is. I'd stick it out to at least episode 5, "Ballad of Fallen Angels", though.
Jay--I like Ed in small doses. Then again, I have a strong tolerance level for what some call 'anime bullshit' that probably drives Mike crazy. And I'm gonna guess his favorite episode of the first half was either "Sympathy for the Devil" or "Waltz For Venus". I re-watched the show a few months back myself, and I sorely underrated those two. Or "Toys in the Attic" (how can anyone not love this one?). I'd second the suggestion to stick it out through "Ballad of Fallen Angels" as that provides a good sense of where the show is ultimately "going" beyond the hints and callbacks that really only emerge in a second viewing. I was okay with Ed in the series itself although definitely not my favorite character, but there was something about seeing a live action version that made me think about media genres and how Ed can be plausible in an animated world and excessive in a live-action one. I was simultaneously impressed by how much of the physical movements were brought in and choreographed and a bit repulsed by the manic energy. As for your guesses, they're all good ones! I think that those were all among the first episodes I saw, out of order as my viewing was. However, none of them were Mike's favorite. I should also clarify that the more obvious choices, "Jupiter Jazz, Pt. 1 and 2," he did really enjoy and said that it got him to forget that he was watching an animated story for a bit, which is really quite high praise coming from him.
Ah yeah, I actually made a ranking of the episodes when I re-watched it a few months ago. "Jupiter Jazz" ranked at #5 for me. Only had "Ballad of Fallen Angels", "Pierrot Le Fou", "Cowboy Funk", and "The Real Folk Blues" ranked above it.
Yeah, I can't really blame them for Ed. I don't think there's a way to make that character work outside of animation. I get that for Mike she made it even harder to take it seriously as drama (on top of it being an animated show). She's just too manic and random to work outside of that. I can definitely blame them for everything else, though. When the show opens with a monologue worse than Elliott's 'fuck society' rant from episode 1 of Mr. Robot, you know you're in trouble.
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Post by Incandescence 112 on Nov 25, 2021 21:27:56 GMT -8
I'm fine sticking with the English dub, despite my quibbles, as I don't find animated dubs distracting the way live-action dubs are, and it's easier to emotionally engage with shows in a language I understand. (This is me being candid, but I maintain that there is a subtle difference in emotional connection when a show or film requires you to simultaneously be watching the characters' faces and the subtitles at the bottom of the screen.) I just watched "Toys in the Attic" and liked it a lot. Perhaps because I'm always a fan of bottle episodes, and that episode made good use of the claustrophobic nature of the main ship. And there was a weird streak in the story that appealed to me as well. I'll stick around for the rest of the series, although I don't know if it will wind up turning me into an anime buff. (Although I did recently watch and enjoy the first season of Hit-Monkey, which is an animated series set in Japan. I mean, it's an American-produced show from Marvel, but it seems to display... a bit of anime influence? I dunno, I think it kinda sorta counts.) Yep, for some people, it's 'that show that got them into it' and for others, it's 'the only anime I really like'. You could be in the latter.
After I re-watched Alien, I got all the references and found it very clever and well put together for a comedic 'filler' episode (hate the word filler, because it doesn't fit in this case). You've got some bangers in the back half. There's even an homage to Batman: The Animated Series ahead.....
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Post by Jay on Nov 26, 2021 12:50:44 GMT -8
I'd second the suggestion to stick it out through "Ballad of Fallen Angels" as that provides a good sense of where the show is ultimately "going" beyond the hints and callbacks that really only emerge in a second viewing. I was okay with Ed in the series itself although definitely not my favorite character, but there was something about seeing a live action version that made me think about media genres and how Ed can be plausible in an animated world and excessive in a live-action one. I was simultaneously impressed by how much of the physical movements were brought in and choreographed and a bit repulsed by the manic energy. As for your guesses, they're all good ones! I think that those were all among the first episodes I saw, out of order as my viewing was. However, none of them were Mike's favorite. I should also clarify that the more obvious choices, "Jupiter Jazz, Pt. 1 and 2," he did really enjoy and said that it got him to forget that he was watching an animated story for a bit, which is really quite high praise coming from him.
Ah yeah, I actually made a ranking of the episodes when I re-watched it a few months ago. "Jupiter Jazz" ranked at #5 for me. Only had "Ballad of Fallen Angels", "Pierrot Le Fou", "Cowboy Funk", and "The Real Folk Blues" ranked above it.
Yeah, I can't really blame them for Ed. I don't think there's a way to make that character work outside of animation. I get that for Mike she made it even harder to take it seriously as drama (on top of it being an animated show). She's just too manic and random to work outside of that. I can definitely blame them for everything else, though. When the show opens with a monologue worse than Elliott's 'fuck society' rant from episode 1 of Mr. Robot, you know you're in trouble.
Ah yes, "Cowboy Funk, " the episode that got banned in America for years because it was too close for comfort to the 9/11 disaster.... In any case, I just noticed going through the episode list that the one MJ liked best was between your first two guesses, not "Sympathy for the Devil" or "Waltz for Venus" but, to my shock, "Heavy Metal Queen." I also thought that we quit later than we did, but I do remember the last episode we watched was "Speak Like a Child," which didn't go over as well as I'd hoped, even though he really liked Faye's character. Now I'm wondering how he would have responded to "Pierrot Le Fou" or the noir inversion of "Boogie Woogie Feng Shui," though I should add the Jet-centered episodes, while sufficiently serious, never really spoke to him as I anticipated they might.
Also thanks for the added info on the opening monologue because anything that compares unfavorably to Mr. Robot is probably not something I care to mess with.
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Post by ThirdMan on Nov 26, 2021 14:56:32 GMT -8
(This is me being candid, but I maintain that there is a subtle difference in emotional connection when a show or film requires you to simultaneously be watching the characters' faces and the subtitles at the bottom of the screen.) I don't know. I think films with subtitles typically require more focus, and if what's on display (visuals, body language) is compelling, I eventually forget I'm even reading subtitles. Whereas with a lot of mainstream English-language films, you only interact with them on a detached surface level, and don't focus on the images, because they're glorified radio plays (that spell virtually everything out via dialogue) that can be "watched" while you're doing something else. I think the reality is, a lot of folks don't genuinely enjoy (or have the patience for) films, and instead use most of them as background-fodder (which, obviously, makes subtitled films a task for them). But, you know, it's a case-by-case sort of thing. Some French films can be very talky, and rather overwhelming in terms of trying to keep up (which can put audience members at a distance), but many subtitled art films lean way more heavily on images than words, with the former telling the majority of the story. Which is all to say, I'm often more engrossed by subtitled international films than mainstream American fare. My field-of-vision can easily absorb it all.
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Quiara
Grade School
Posts: 775
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Post by Quiara on Nov 26, 2021 18:55:27 GMT -8
Also, Evil is flippin' awesome. I think the problem I have with a lot of shows that try to be The X-Files is that they fail to get a duo with Anderson and Duchovny's charisma on the one hand, and they fail to get a distinct visual atmosphere on the other. And let me tell you, Evil does not struggle with either. The entire cast is golden, and the visuals have incredible panache. I have absolutely no idea how this show aired on CBS of all places!! Well, Michael Emerson starring in underrated genre gems on CBS is on brand for him, isn't it? I'm going to make you very sad by saying this, but I think my biggest takeaway from Evil is that I have decided that I have zero interest in Person of Interest. Seeing Michael Emerson doing his Michael Emerson thing on a show I actually was excited to watch instead of a cop show that felt like homework pretty much convinced me that I am never, ever going to be able to sit through Person of Interest, even with a generous bit of skipping.
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Post by Incandescence 112 on Nov 26, 2021 20:09:44 GMT -8
Well, Michael Emerson starring in underrated genre gems on CBS is on brand for him, isn't it? I'm going to make you very sad by saying this, but I think my biggest takeaway from Evil is that I have decided that I have zero interest in Person of Interest. Seeing Michael Emerson doing his Michael Emerson thing on a show I actually was excited to watch instead of a cop show that felt like homework pretty much convinced me that I am never, ever going to be able to sit through Person of Interest, even with a generous bit of skipping. I always said it had a high barrier of entry, and that those who really hate procedurals probably wouldn't gel with it. That being said, it is very much worth getting through the first eight episodes or so, since by its end it's one of the smartest and most compelling sci-fi tales in quite some time (probably since The Prisoner for me), and very much the opposite of what you'd expect from a show on CBS.
Even at the start, though, it's more like Minority Report with a bit of Psycho Pass in there than NCIS. And S1 improves dramatically in its back half--I'd say that taken as a whole, I'd rather watch S1 than S1 of A:TLA.
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Post by ThirdMan on Nov 26, 2021 20:42:22 GMT -8
There are so many acclaimed shows over the past 20 years, that it's asking a lot for someone to commit to a network series that often has 22-episode seasons. Especially if they're REALLY not into procedurals.
I'm already at a point where I won't watch any new hourlong series that produces more than 13-episodes-per-season, and even 13 is sometimes pushing it.
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Post by Jeremy on Nov 27, 2021 15:38:26 GMT -8
I don't think I've regularly watched any 22-episode-per-season dramas in several years. Seems like the practice has been fading out, even on broadcast networks. (Interesting tidbit - due to Covid, most of the network shows in the 2020-21 season produced 18 episodes or less.) I don't know. I think films with subtitles typically require more focus, and if what's on display (visuals, body language) is compelling, I eventually forget I'm even reading subtitles. Whereas with a lot of mainstream English-language films, you only interact with them on a detached surface level, and don't focus on the images, because they're glorified radio plays (that spell virtually everything out via dialogue) that can be "watched" while you're doing something else. I think the reality is, a lot of folks don't genuinely enjoy (or have the patience for) films, and instead use most of them as background-fodder (which, obviously, makes subtitled films a task for them). But, you know, it's a case-by-case sort of thing. Some French films can be very talky, and rather overwhelming in terms of trying to keep up (which can put audience members at a distance), but many subtitled art films lean way more heavily on images than words, with the former telling the majority of the story. I'm not really talking about mainstream American films exclusively; I have the same issue with indie English films films vis-à-vis foreign-language ones. Obviously, it depends on the film. A movie like Bicycle Thieves doesn't depend as much on dialogue as it does on visuals and atmosphere, and thus the subtitles aren't as key to connecting with it. Whereas more dialogue-heavy films can create something of an issue when I'm matching character visuals with individual words, vocal inflections, et al. This is not a major issue by any stretch, and often not even a substantial one, but it's one of the unavoidable side effects of watching something in a language you're not directly familiar with. Incidentally, I recently watched the French-language action film Sentinelle on Netflix. It is not a good movie, but at various points I switched from the subbed version to the dubbed version and then back again. The dubbing was distracting and bad, but I was entertained by its badness, and it made the film ironically entertaining.
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Post by guttersnipe on Nov 27, 2021 16:27:50 GMT -8
Whereas with a lot of mainstream English-language films, you only interact with them on a detached surface level, and don't focus on the images, because they're glorified radio plays (that spell virtually everything out via dialogue) that can be "watched" while you're doing something else. I largely agree, though at the same time I curiously watched a documentary about Frank Baum this week who made some short-lived ventures into very early filmmaking, which he called "radio-plays" even though you'd hardly argue that said terminology makes much sense in that context. I'm fine sticking with the English dub, despite my quibbles, as I don't find animated dubs distracting the way live-action dubs are, and it's easier to emotionally engage with shows in a language I understand. (This is me being candid, but I maintain that there is a subtle difference in emotional connection when a show or film requires you to simultaneously be watching the characters' faces and the subtitles at the bottom of the screen.) I find this interesting because it makes me wonder how you respond to silent films, where necessity prompts a literal break from the action in order to convey dialogue, a plot point or a change of location via an (often overlong) intertitle. I think silents are generally a hard sell with contemporary audiences not only because of B&W and historical baggage but because of the rhythms that need to be locked into and as JC argued, the attention required.
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Post by Jeremy on Nov 27, 2021 17:26:00 GMT -8
My recent viewing of The Jazz Singer (which is not nearly the "talkie" it's advertised as) was a bit rocky in part for the use of intertitles, which did indeed go on longer than they should. (At certain points I just put the film on double-speed so the words wouldn't stay onscreen longer than necessary.) I don't find silent pics to be the most investing format, but I went along with it due to the limitations of the time period.
I haven't watched too many other full-length silent films (apart from modern tributes like The Artist, which don't typically make much use of intertitles), so I don't have much basis for opinion there.
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Post by guttersnipe on Nov 27, 2021 17:47:46 GMT -8
That's fair enough. I actually watched a recent documentary series that purported to convey the full panoply of cinema history, which proved highly selective from the get-go as it actually started with The Jazz Singer, thereby simply ignoring the previous forty years of the medium.
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Post by guttersnipe on Nov 28, 2021 1:29:59 GMT -8
Incidentally, if you do happen to take an interest in the period and consider 'questing' it, I've done a ton of homework on the era if you want a whistle-stop tour or even a comprehensive guide. I've boned up on Lang, von Sternberg, Murnau, Vidor, Lubitsch etc, I know the three big guns of comedy, the Griffith-ian, Gance-ian and DeMille-ian epics, Weimar avant-garde, Gish weepies, Soviet propaganda, Feuillade serials, Fairbanks swashbucklers, even real early experiments from Cecil Hepworth, Alice Guy, James Williamson, the Lumieres etc.
At the least I'd be amazed if you didn't take to Buster.
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Post by Jeremy on Nov 28, 2021 8:21:27 GMT -8
Oh yes, I recall trying to watch the original Mark of Zorro with Douglas Fairbanks several years ago, but didn't get too far. I think found the use of intertitles distracting. Hopefully my mind has matured since then.
Thanks for the assist; I will probably get to a few of the other silent-era films soon. Right now there are still a number of more modern (i.e. post-1930) films I've been wanting to get to first. The upside of the silents is that many of them tend to be pretty short (often under 90 minutes), which I always find helpful.
For now, my only real familiarity with silent-era Hollywood is the animated short films, notably the works of Winsor McKay and J. Stuart Blackton. To that end, I do bristle when people refer to Steamboat Willie as "the first animated cartoon" or some such. (It wasn't even the first Mickey Mouse short! Get it together, people.)
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Post by ThirdMan on Nov 28, 2021 14:34:43 GMT -8
I'd say that watching Fritz Lang's Metropolis is a no-brainer, but to be fair, the definitive edition of that would probably be the 2-and-a-half-hour version that was assembled after thought-to-be-lost film reels were unearthed in 2008. Mind you, I vaguely recall a conversation about that film here, so it's possible you've already seen some version of it. Anyways, the longer version is actually on YouTube for free: www.youtube.com/watch?v=5BBnMCAIuQgMurnau's Sunrise is well worth a look, as well, and would be more manageable for you at 94 minutes. www.youtube.com/watch?v=MJ3Bj7RcqnQAnd it goes without saying that the most acclaimed films from Buster Keaton and Charlie Chaplin are very enjoyable, though some find the latter's work a bit more sentimental than they'd prefer. Snipe would probably be able to give you some guidance as to which Harold Lloyd films are his best, as well. Keaton's The General: www.youtube.com/watch?v=iHlBMKtgPOAKeaton's Sherlock, Jr.: www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZuqWxITq38 (only 45 minutes) Chaplin's City Lights: www.youtube.com/watch?v=TkF1we_DeCQ&list=PLDS-rav9bUWTOvCrtvySIhKzmbv-tZnL0Chaplin's Modern Times: www.youtube.com/watch?v=2gLa4wAia9g
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Post by guttersnipe on Nov 28, 2021 15:43:58 GMT -8
Sure can, and I was slightly surprised to realise I think I've seen ten of his films. He's no-one's idea of an equal to Chaplin or Keaton unless you're gunning for hipster points (they don't really need to be compared any more than everybody does with female rappers, but it invariably crops up), but Grandma's Boy, Girl Shy and especially Safety Last! come highly recommended. JC just provided a link to Sherlock Jr. which is frankly incredible filmmaking, and exactly on the cusp of feature-length if time is an issue.
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