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Post by Jeremy on Jun 1, 2018 14:12:19 GMT -8
I still don't get why Fields and Weisberg specifically told FX that their show needed a fifth and sixth season. Pretty much everything that happened in Season Five could be compressed into half a dozen episodes. Season Six could have been easily trimmed down to six or seven episodes (at most). The decision to stretch it out hurt the final season creatively. (And financially, for that matter - the ratings just kept on dropping.)
But even if they had limited it to five seasons, I'm not sure how the show stacks up as a whole. The writers started out trying to make a standard escapist spy thriller, and only changed course in Season Two after getting some suggestions from the network. Over the rest of its run, the show made two legitimately strong seasons, but even then it was marred by its need to drag out story arcs and only kill off characters when the plot was cool with it. In the process, some characters became homogenized, others barely progressed at all.
It's a well-made and well-acted series, definitely. But I'd be hard-pressed to call it one of the decade's best.
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Quiara
Grade School
Posts: 775
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Post by Quiara on Jun 1, 2018 14:51:12 GMT -8
The Americans is kind of interesting as far as prestige dramas go-- they usually start out low-key and then start escalating tension, whereas The Americans started out very cloak-and-dagger and with cars blowing up and slowly got less and less "exciting" until the finale was just... people talking, mostly. I don't really think that's a strength though. In fact, that's probably the main thing holding me back from loving it as much as everyone else. There's no singular focus for the story or characters. Where Philip and Elizabeth end up, plot-wise and character-wise doesn't feel like a natural extension of a 6-season story, or a 5 act Shakespearean Tragedy that you mentioned last year. Their final tragedy is losing their children.....one of whom they've completely ignored and one of whom they've given trust issues for the rest of her life, at best. What's the real, over-arching story of The Americans? Plot-wise, Season 5 is basically revealed to have been a complete waste of time. The "big" decision to stay didn't actually have any consequences for them. They basically get the happiest possible ending. I should probably wait a couple days before posting my thoughts, sometimes. My opinion has steadily gone down since I've seen it. It was really well-made, but I don't think the show actually has an overall great story to tell. If they wanted the whole story to be about two spies who become disillusioned with their cause, that doesn't really work. Philip was already that way in the pilot, and Elizabeth very suddenly made that turn in the third-to-last episode of the entire series. I'd like to make a counterargument by invoking our dearly departed Alex C., who said this in 2014 as a defense of The Sopranos: I think this is a good description of what makes... sorry, made :-( ... The Americans "The Best Show On Television" -- that it is not a show "about two spies that become disillusioned with their cause." I think it really is up to you what the show is about: the secrets we keep from our loved ones? A scathing political satire and tearing down/reconstruction of the American dream? A meditation on immigration and national identity? (Have I brought up "Salang Pass" on CT? When I defend the show in real life I usually bring that episode up as the clearest example of this.) I don't know what the two "strong" seasons of the show are, in your opinion, Jeremy. Please elaborate-- as a whole, this is easily my favorite television program of the decade.
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Post by ThirdMan on Jun 1, 2018 15:40:27 GMT -8
I think the only lesser seasons are 1 and 5. But it won't rank as one of my absolute favourites of the decade because I prefer a bit more humour, and colour, in my programming. Still very strong, though.
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Post by Jeremy on Jun 1, 2018 15:47:04 GMT -8
Seasons 2 and 4. The former is the show's most cohesive, the latter its most exciting. Season 3 is mostly good, but it does drag near the end. The other seasons are all profoundly flawed on some levels, be it in pacing, plotting, or character redundancies.
I guess I never saw The Americans the way you describe it. (For that matter, I never quite saw The Sopranos the way Alex described it, which may be why I didn't love The Sopranos.) I tend to subscribe to Roger Ebert's philosophy - the story you tell doesn't matter as much as how it's told. And sometimes, The Americans told its story - about spies, about family, about 1980s America - quite well. Other times, not so much.
If it's your favorite show of the decade, great. (It'll probably get you fewer eyebrow-raises than Cucumber.) I certainly don't mean to diminish anyone else's experience. But I've seen a lot of great shows this decade, and while I respect a lot that The Americans does, it wouldn't even make my Top 10.
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Post by ThirdMan on Jun 1, 2018 15:55:50 GMT -8
The show would need to have more sexy, quippy young vixens in order for it to crack Jer's Top 10. Sorry Kimmy, you're just not enough!
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Post by Incandescence 112 on Jun 1, 2018 16:09:27 GMT -8
Seasons 2 and 4. The former is the show's most cohesive, the latter its most exciting. Season 3 is mostly good, but it does drag near the end. The other seasons are all profoundly flawed on some levels, be it in pacing, plotting, or character redundancies. I guess I never saw The Americans the way you describe it. (For that matter, I never quite saw The Sopranos the way Alex described it, which may be why I didn't love The Sopranos.) I tend to subscribe to Roger Ebert's philosophy - the story you tell doesn't matter as much as how it's told. And sometimes, The Americans told its story - about spies, about family, about 1980s America - quite well. Other times, not so much. If it's your favorite show of the decade, great. (It'll probably get you fewer eyebrow-raises than Cucumber.) I certainly don't mean to diminish anyone else's experience. But I've seen a lot of great shows this decade, and while I respect a lot that The Americans does, it wouldn't even make my Top 10. I agree wholeheartedly, both on The Americans and The Sopranos. Season 1 was incredibly soapy. Season 3 has 2 fantastic episodes "Do Mail Robots?..." and "Stingers". Seasons 5 and 6 are dragged out into oblivion.
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Post by Incandescence 112 on Jun 1, 2018 16:18:06 GMT -8
I don't really think that's a strength though. In fact, that's probably the main thing holding me back from loving it as much as everyone else. There's no singular focus for the story or characters. Where Philip and Elizabeth end up, plot-wise and character-wise doesn't feel like a natural extension of a 6-season story, or a 5 act Shakespearean Tragedy that you mentioned last year. Their final tragedy is losing their children.....one of whom they've completely ignored and one of whom they've given trust issues for the rest of her life, at best. What's the real, over-arching story of The Americans? Plot-wise, Season 5 is basically revealed to have been a complete waste of time. The "big" decision to stay didn't actually have any consequences for them. They basically get the happiest possible ending. I should probably wait a couple days before posting my thoughts, sometimes. My opinion has steadily gone down since I've seen it. It was really well-made, but I don't think the show actually has an overall great story to tell. If they wanted the whole story to be about two spies who become disillusioned with their cause, that doesn't really work. Philip was already that way in the pilot, and Elizabeth very suddenly made that turn in the third-to-last episode of the entire series. I'd like to make a counterargument by invoking our dearly departed Alex C., who said this in 2014 as a defense of The Sopranos: I think this is a good description of what makes... sorry, made :-( ... The Americans "The Best Show On Television" -- that it is not a show "about two spies that become disillusioned with their cause." I think it really is up to you what the show is about: the secrets we keep from our loved ones? A scathing political satire and tearing down/reconstruction of the American dream? A meditation on immigration and national identity? (Have I brought up "Salang Pass" on CT? When I defend the show in real life I usually bring that episode up as the clearest example of this.) I don't know what the two "strong" seasons of the show are, in your opinion, Jeremy. Please elaborate-- as a whole, this is easily my favorite television program of the decade. I can see where this argument comes from, but personally, and I know Ron Swanson would agree-I'd rather have the show go all in one on theme than half-ass a whole bunch of them. I also agree with Jeremy-there are so many great shows this decade- Breaking Bad/ Better Call Saul, Justified, Hannibal, BoJack Horseman, Person of Interest, Parks and Recreation-just to name some of my favorites. I'm sure Jeremy has a list a mile long.
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Post by Jeremy on Jun 2, 2018 20:37:45 GMT -8
Yeah, most of those shows would pass The Americans, in my estimation. A lot of really great TV in the last few years, even if the sheer quantity of it can grow fatiguing. I'll be interested in seeing which shows earn the most recognition when critics release their "Best of the Decade" lists next year. The 2000s had about ten great shows that everyone could agree deserved to be recognized. The 2010s have dozens of shows that have gained some kind of mass recognition, and I wouldn't be surprised to find a number of lists differing wildly from each other. The show would need to have more sexy, quippy young vixens in order for it to crack Jer's Top 10. Sorry Kimmy, you're just not enough! Indeed. The only Kimmy I truly love is the one starring on that hilarious and brilliant Netflix sitcom. (I am of course referring to Kimmy Gibler.)
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Post by Incandescence 112 on Jun 3, 2018 13:11:42 GMT -8
Yeah, most of those shows would pass The Americans, in my estimation. A lot of really great TV in the last few years, even if the sheer quantity of it can grow fatiguing. I'll be interested in seeing which shows earn the most recognition when critics release their "Best of the Decade" lists next year. The 2000s had about ten great shows that everyone could agree deserved to be recognized. The 2010s have dozens of shows that have gained some kind of mass recognition, and I wouldn't be surprised to find a number of lists differing wildly from each other. Ooh, is that a quiz? Deadwood, The Wire, The Sopranos, Battlestar Galactica, The Shield, Arrested Development, The Office, Friday Night Lights, Mad Men, Six Feet Under, The West Wing.
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Post by Jeremy on Jun 3, 2018 14:45:11 GMT -8
It wasn't a quiz, but if it was, you submitted eleven entries. We may have to dock points.
(And maybe saying there were ten widely-agreed-upon shows is pushing it. Some critics would definitely name Six Feet Under and The Office among the decade's best, but others would probably give their positions to things like Lost or Curb Your Enthusiasm.)
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Post by ThirdMan on Jun 3, 2018 16:09:21 GMT -8
Are you referring to the UK Office? Because that garnered far more acclaim than the American version, overall.
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Post by Incandescence 112 on Jun 4, 2018 7:19:26 GMT -8
It wasn't a quiz, but if it was, you submitted eleven entries. We may have to dock points. (And maybe saying there were ten widely-agreed-upon shows is pushing it. Some critics would definitely name Six Feet Under and The Office among the decade's best, but others would probably give their positions to things like Lost or Curb Your Enthusiasm.) JC, I was referring to the American version. You're right that the British one is more highly acclaimed, but I'll take Spaced (or any Edgar Wright project, really) over the British Office any day.
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Post by otherscott on Jun 14, 2018 21:26:03 GMT -8
Where was this show for 5 seasons? This season was nearly perfect for me, it was perfectly paced, it was so thematically amazing. It manages to turn a spy show into a show about a family, and one that in its own way describes every family. About a parent's ability to let their kids go, and them trying to reconcile the secrets they've kept from their kids about their moral shortcomings as a person. THIS WAS SO GOOD.
The Americans has long been a show that I haven't felt enough - it was too cold at times, it was too slow at times, it was so dark that I was too afraid to emotionally invest myself at times. It drifted around the bottom of my top 10 year after year after year (except last year where it didn't even come close to that). For me, it put it together perfectly this season. It paid everything off perfectly. This is what I wanted from the show the whole time.
Looking at it from a high level of the entire show, to me it's one amazing season and a few seasons of "could-have-beens". I think Season 2 is very good, but seasons have tended to anticlimax and not connect together very well. Plots and peripheral characters have dragged on past their use, particularly Oleg, Nina and Stan (don't forget Mischa!) in those back middle seasons. I think it should have been a four season show - season 1 and 2 can stay the same (though ideally Season 1 gets other improvemets), but Season 3 can finish with Martha and cover the Paige stuff, and then just have this final season as Season 4.
Some people are trying to compare it to other shows this decade, and I think if we limit it to shows premiering in this decade, it's a pretty easy number 3 for me behind Rectify and The Leftovers. This season is better than anything Rectify had to offer but Rectify was more consistent. Orange is the New Black definitely can pass it as well, but it needs to rebound and not drag. The decade hasn't been fantastic for all time great consistent shows, there's been a lot of 1-2 season flashes.
But yeah, I'm going to say it. This is the best final season I've ever seen from FX.
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Post by Jeremy on Jun 15, 2018 5:04:56 GMT -8
That reminds me, since I don't recall you bringing it up in the past - did you ever get to watch the final season of The Shield?
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Post by otherscott on Jun 15, 2018 6:02:01 GMT -8
Yes! Somehow I had gotten stuck with 4 episodes left and left it like that for about a year. My TV watching habits truly make no sense sometimes.
I think the final 2 episodes of The Shield are a bit of a masterpiece in terms of condemnation of a man for abusing power for his own ends. Maybe secondary to The Sopranos in that regard, but The Shield had a lot more catharsis to how it went about finishing things - it punished Vic far more than The Sopranos ever punished Tony, regardless of what you believe about the last scene of The Sopranos.
That said, The Shield was never a show I fully warmed to or completely understood. It had it's big moments when things all came together, but it also had a lot of episodes that just seemed like a typical episode of any procedural cop show. Even the final season, the first half meanders a lot and I don't think the second half does enough to really pay off all the time spent over the years on Dutch - just having him come out victorious on one admittedly big case just doesn't seem like a conclusion, and it could have done more to tie him in with the main story with Vic. In a way Dutch is Vic's mirror - similarly arrogant, similarly concerned with getting the bad guy, but Dutch didn't embrace the illegal methods to the same extent that Vic did.
If we're looking at shows challenging for the title of best FX shows of all time, I kind of think Fargo is a bigger challenger to The Americans for the title than The Shield is, at least for me. Obviously Atlanta is going to have its say there as well when it's all said and done, but I've still only seen one season. I'll be watching the second one shortly. I've got to decide either that or Killing Eve next.
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