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Post by otherscott on Apr 13, 2022 9:42:18 GMT -8
Today in making me feel old - it has now been almost 8 years since this thread. I barely even remember large parts of Buffy the Vampire Slayer.
Also, there's a lot of people who used to post that I miss, but I think I miss Iguana-On-A-Stick the most.
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Post by Incandescence 112 on Apr 13, 2022 14:49:52 GMT -8
Today in making me feel old - it has now been almost 8 years since this thread. I barely even remember large parts of Buffy the Vampire Slayer.
Also, there's a lot of people who used to post that I miss, but I think I miss Iguana-On-A-Stick the most. I'm still bitter that I joined just before Iguana left. Really wish I got to rend his ear more.
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Quiara
Grade School
Posts: 775
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Post by Quiara on Apr 14, 2022 9:24:40 GMT -8
Today in making me feel old - it has now been almost 8 years since this thread. I barely even remember large parts of Buffy the Vampire Slayer. Say it ain't so!
It is sort of funny that Buffy is still never considered in the running for the best show ever, not so much because the show has aged poorly but because the culture has really really fixed on The Sopranos as the Canonical Best Show Ever in the past couple of years in a way it wasn't several years ago (to the detriment of, e.g., Breaking Bad). Or at least, that's how it would appear.
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Post by ThirdMan on Apr 14, 2022 12:11:23 GMT -8
It's really not that surprising, given how so many people fixate on the first two Godfather films being the best evuuuuurrrrr (obviously critics and film historians often go with Citizen Kane, but the populace-at-large seem to like the Godfather films and Shawshank Redemption). As for BtVS, beyond genre prejudice/ageism (against "youth" programming) and being at a distinct artistic disadvantage as a network show (with 22 eps a season), its legacy is now gonna be tarnished somewhat by Joss's on-set misbehavior, unfortunately. That said, if something damaging were to come out about David Chase (I've never heard anything of that sort, for the record, and hopefully nobody ever fabricates anything), you'd probably see some folks shift their focus to hyping up The Wire or Breaking Bad instead. Mad Men used to be in the mix, but I gather people now think it went on a bit too long, and involved a bit too much navel-gazing as it progressed. On a semi-related note, otherscott was talking about how perhaps shows these days aren't as prime for analysis? I actually think it's the opposite. Back in the late 90s/early 00s, there were only a few shows that seemed ambitious and layered enough to warrant such analysis (The Sopranos, BtVS, and The West Wing in particular), so they got most of the attention. Most everything else was a standard cop, lawyer, or hospital show. Now, every year, dating back at least ~15 years, there are a ton of shows that are artistically-minded and "cinematic", so any sort of critical analysis is gonna be spread all over the place instead. Lately, as Jeremy has noted, it's been leaning more towards the half-hour dramedies, but there's plenty of stuff to deconstruct these days. The question is, unless one is paid to do it, who's got enough energy to bother, on a regular basis (aside from weirdos like Jeremy, that is )?
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Quiara
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Post by Quiara on Apr 14, 2022 13:11:47 GMT -8
It's really not that surprising, given how so many people fixate on the first two Godfather films being the best evuuuuurrrrr (obviously critics and film historians often go with Citizen Kane, but the populace-at-large seem to like the Godfather films and Shawshank Redemption). As for BtVS, beyond genre prejudice/ageism (against "youth" programming) and being at a distinct artistic disadvantage as a network show (with 22 eps a season), its legacy is now gonna be tarnished somewhat by Joss's on-set misbehavior, unfortunately. That said, if something damaging were to come out about David Chase (I've never heard anything of that sort, for the record, and hopefully nobody ever fabricates anything), you'd probably see some folks shift their focus to hyping up The Wire or Breaking Bad instead. Mad Men used to be in the mix, but I gather people now think it went on a bit too long, and involved a bit too much navel-gazing as it progressed. I'm not so sure of that. Matthew Weiner was/is a sex pest but that hasn't really tarnished Mad Men's critical reputation; I think Tarantino is a skeevy little gremlin man who has said something that *should* sink his reputation seemingly once a month for the past twenty years and he's still pretty beloved among film guys. Actually, plenty of beloved directors were kind of notoriously awful people on-set (Kubrick and Hitchcock come to mind immediately) but are given a pass based on the quality of their work.
Buffy's problem as a show worthy of being taken seriously as art, I think, is closer to point 3 of the OP than any of the others - it is an unabashedly girly show with an unabashedly teenage female audience, and people have a hard time accepting that art tailored towards that audience could be smart or have artistic merit. Sometimes you meet a certain kind of film guy who loves to bemoan JW's nefarious influence on popular media, blaming him for dumbing down popular movies or making them too quippy or whatever - a weird criticism on its face (what, action movies didn't have quips before 2012??), until you realize what they actually dislike about him is that - and realize, this is me being VERY reductive, but not in a wrong way - The Avengers he feminized the mainstream blockbuster, or added "feels" to it, so now the default for an action movie is for it to be a four-quadrant movie. That's where I think his alleged influence in mainstream cinema is not just him being a scapegoat for Hollywood increasingly courting foreign revenue, but an actual thing that he pioneered and is disliked for.
Also: I also miss Iggy.
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Post by ThirdMan on Apr 14, 2022 14:14:13 GMT -8
Oh, I wasn't suggesting the allegations against Joss were the primary component of why his TV work isn't as highly regarded in some circles as perhaps it should be, only that it's something that probably keeps some prior supporters from wanting to discuss his work in as much detail these days. The young-female demo and genre elements play a bigger role in that, for sure. A lot it relates to being swept up in that Snyder-fan bullshit with Justice League, as well. The allegations just added to the piling-on, is all. There's also simply the fact that some appreciate witty wordplay and dialogue, while others harp on it being "unrealistic", and thus somehow less worthy than fully-"realistic" fare. Anyways, people who think The Avengers (with Thor, Ant Man, and the like) shouldn't be handled in a somewhat jokey manner are dorks (The Flash, Wonder Woman, and Superman as well). The Thor franchise finally got good when it fully embraced its ridiculousness (in Ragnarok).
Re: Weiner, though, because his only notable success as a showrunner/director has been Mad Men, and he hasn't been in the public-eye that much outside of it, he can keep a somewhat lower-profile than someone like Joss. And let's be honest, if critics are rating The Sopranos, The Wire, Breaking Bad, and Mad Men, of the four, MM is usually pulling up the rear, regardless of Weiner's indiscretions (and I say that as someone who sometimes enjoyed MM more than The Sopranos). Tarantino has always been a divisive figure, regardless of what he's said in the media. Anyways, I think the overabundance of critically-acclaimed shows in the past decade muddies the perception of what would stand alongside those shows these days, though. Atlanta might have a shot, if it continues on its current trajectory for a few more seasons, and doesn't take another excessively-long break. Game of Thrones apparently really blew it in its last season or two, if it was ever in the running in some folks' estimation to begin with. That's another show that's stolen BtVS's thunder, simply on account of having much higher production values, and more pretentious acting.
You guys should make a list of five-to-ten shows from the past decade or so that you suspect may be ~almost as well regarded as The Sopranos/The Wire/Breaking Bad/Mad Men over time. I figure a lot of them will be dramadies rather than dramas, but have at it, if you like. If Better Call Saul sticks the landing, I may actually end up preferring it to BB, to be honest (it's a bit more artful, and less melodramatic). Bojack Horseman was pretty great overall (after a slow start). I would've had Fargo on there, but I enjoyed the third and fourth seasons more than most, apparently (Season 2 is about as good as any season of TV I've seen). And Jeremy, on a side note, you should get around to checking out the third season of Legion at some point: it definitely felt more emotionally-substantial than the second season, which you and others were mixed on, and had a pretty unique and poignant ending (it's good genre fare).
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Post by Jeremy on Apr 14, 2022 20:10:43 GMT -8
I'm going to make a somewhat bold statement here, but I think it's going to be really, really hard for most of the shows currently on TV (even the most acclaimed ones) to comfortably gain a foothold in the BSE discussion. That's partly because (as I alluded to in the DCEU thread), television has grown really wide and fragmented in recent years, and in order for a series to become ingrained in the cultural consciousness - effectively the only way it will be consistently put in such discussion - it needs to gain a level of cultural status and notoriety afforded to very few shows in the modern age. The Sopranos and The Wire aired at a time when no other shows were doing what they did, but nowadays the level of competition is overwhelming. (The Leftovers was one of the most acclaimed shows of the past decade, but only among the microscopic number of people who watched it. But hey, maybe the broader culture will discover it years later on streaming! Just as soon as they finish catching up on Succession... and Ozark... and Better Things... and hey, is that a new season of Russian Doll? And...)
Mind you, I don't think this is necessarily a bad thing. It's great that TV is expanding its horizons, and finding new ways to craft great storytelling beyond gritty hourlong antihero dramas. But it's hard to see the Best Show Ever debate really ever moving fully beyond the shows that sparked it in the modern era, since way too many other shows have been crowding for attention ever since.
As for Buffy, I think it was always hurt in critical estimation by its title and teenage female perspective. But it also represents a sort of television program that is more reflective of a bygone era, back when broadcast networks took risks and 22-episode seasons were the norm. Buffy has undoubtedly had an impact on pop culture, but very few of the best shows nowadays have notable Buffy DNA. (And many of its direct successors are other WB/CW shows - Veronica Mars, Supernatural, Arrow and its 'verse.) It will always have dedicated fans, even through all the Whedon garbage, but two decades on, its influence has never quite broken out of a limited niche.
P.S. I'd like to apologize, five years later, for the crummy way I reposted this thread. I was not aware at the time of how to properly convert the text to the new forum beyond basic copy-paste functions. Sorry for any inconvenience.
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Quiara
Grade School
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Post by Quiara on Apr 14, 2022 20:25:07 GMT -8
I feel pretty comfortable saying that The Americans will be on that pantheon, and it is probably the last great antihero drama of the platinum-age-of-TV-antihero-drama mold (so when critics say that, e.g., Pen15 is an antihero drama, they're not wrong, but that's obviously not what I mean here). Well, maybe Better Call Saul counts. I think BoJack is going to be up there. In an ideal world Halt and Catch Fire, which I need to give another shot, would be up there. Probably Succession will be up there, although it's up there in lieu of Veep, which SHOULD be up there but is underrated because it's ostensibly a comedy, and comedies don't get acclaim.
What makes this a hard game to play is that most of the "pantheon" shows need a heft to them in terms of length, as opposed to just being one-and-done things. Something like Watchmen, great as it is, is never going to make this list because it's so short, but honestly, I think The Leftovers has the same problem breaking through at "only" three seasons.
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Quiara
Grade School
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Post by Quiara on Apr 14, 2022 20:50:39 GMT -8
As for Buffy, I think it was always hurt in critical estimation by its title and teenage female perspective. But it also represents a sort of television program that is more reflective of a bygone era, back when broadcast networks took risks and 22-episode seasons were the norm. Buffy has undoubtedly had an impact on pop culture, but very few of the best shows nowadays have notable Buffy DNA. (And many of its direct successors are other WB/CW shows - Veronica Mars, Supernatural, Arrow and its 'verse.) It will always have dedicated fans, even through all the Whedon garbage, but two decades on, its influence has never quite broken out of a limited niche. I think Buffy's niche is limited... to very online people and to showrunners of the '00s. It's definitely weird to say there are no really notable shows with Buffy DNA - nearly every SFF show that isn't aiming for high fantasy is either living in or desperately trying to outrun Whedon's shadow, for instance. But IMO you can definitely see Buffy's influence on plenty of subsequent prestige TV shows. I seem to recall an anecdote from Vince Gilligan explicitly saying he gave all the writers on Breaking Bad a set of Buffy DVDs and told them to take notes, and you can definitely see the influence if you peek beneath the surface. Damon Lindelof 100% took cues from Buffy. I think The Americans usually gets compared to one of the white male antihero shows but it's got so much in common with Buffy that I can't help but think they were cribbing. The Kings, a.k.a. the last of the network TV auteurs, clearly love Buffy.
It is true though that Buffy mastered the 22-episode season at more or less the exact moment it fell out of vogue - at least, among serious/"cool" viewers (not that you're uncool for rooting for The Good Wife, Jer). I do think if I made a list of my favorite 22-episode seasons of TV, the top three might just be Buffy seasons. I can't think of anything else that comes close, tbh.
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Post by ThirdMan on Apr 14, 2022 21:31:10 GMT -8
As for Buffy, I think it was always hurt in critical estimation by its title and teenage female perspective. But it also represents a sort of television program that is more reflective of a bygone era, back when broadcast networks took risks and 22-episode seasons were the norm. Buffy has undoubtedly had an impact on pop culture, but very few of the best shows nowadays have notable Buffy DNA. (And many of its direct successors are other WB/CW shows - Veronica Mars, Supernatural, Arrow and its 'verse.) It will always have dedicated fans, even through all the Whedon garbage, but two decades on, its influence has never quite broken out of a limited niche. I think Buffy's niche is limited... to very online people and to showrunners of the '00s. It's definitely weird to say there are no really notable shows with Buffy DNA - nearly every SFF show that isn't aiming for high fantasy is either living in or desperately trying to outrun Whedon's shadow, for instance. But IMO you can definitely see Buffy's influence on plenty of subsequent prestige TV shows. I seem to recall an anecdote from Vince Gilligan explicitly saying he gave all the writers on Breaking Bad a set of Buffy DVDs and told them to take notes, and you can definitely see the influence if you peek beneath the surface. Damon Lindelof 100% took cues from Buffy. I think The Americans usually gets compared to one of the white male antihero shows but it's got so much in common with Buffy that I can't help but think they were cribbing. The Kings, a.k.a. the last of the network TV auteurs, clearly love Buffy.
It is true though that Buffy mastered the 22-episode season at more or less the exact moment it fell out of vogue - at least, among serious/"cool" viewers (not that you're uncool for rooting for The Good Wife, Jer). I do think if I made a list of my favorite 22-episode seasons of TV, the top three might just be Buffy seasons. I can't think of anything else that comes close, tbh.
Yeah, I can see BtVS's imprint on a ton of TV series from the past fifteen years. Particularly its emphasis on a season's "Big Bad", which was weaved in-and-out with side stories unrelated to it (while still maintaining some measure of continuity, unlike The X-Files). Killing Eve would be a recent example, but The Americans did it too. Not to mention practically every serialized sci-fi/tantasy show in existence, especially the female-led ones. And Quiara, when one of those pop-culture sites (Salon, maybe) was doing their brackets for Best TV Drama Ever back in the Aughts, The Wire's creator David Simon balked at his show potentially winning, and stated, unironically, that "Buffy is the right answer." A lot of these guys inside the TV-auteur bubble could see more in BtVS than many viewers (who dismissed it for often superficial reasons). As I said, it's always gonna be tough for a show producing 22-episodes-a-season, with a relatively low budget, to consistently hit the artistic threshold of an acclaimed HBO or AMC series, but if you flipped it, and had Chase, Weiner, Simon, or Gilligan showrunning a network show on a stricter production schedule (than their cable counterparts) with a 22-episode order, I seriously doubt they would've produced something much better (if at all) than BtVS in its better years. And I still think that the best, most ambitious episodes of BtVS match up well with the best of any of those shows. It's just that the lows were lower, because...filler. And Jeremy, fully agreed on how the audience being divided by so many different viewing options will probably prevent any recent shows from joining the Greatest Pantheon, at least for some time.
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Post by otherscott on Apr 15, 2022 6:09:38 GMT -8
I tend to agree with Jeremy that no show is going to get the foothold that The Sopranos, The Wire and Breaking Bad were able to achieve in the BSE discussion in modern times. You'd think The Americans would have been primed to enter into that discussion with how well received its final season was but I've heard basically radio silence about it since.
I think the fragmentation of TV is a huge part of, and more specifically that there's so much new stuff on that no one has time or desire to go back and rewatch (non-comedies) from earlier, which Jeremy also alluded to.
There's another aspect of it though, and that despite the fragmentation, there's not as much prestige effort going towards long running series anymore. HBO and FX are really the only ones really competing in the long running series business these days (there's a couple exceptions of course), and even then only with a couple shows. The best drama series at the Emmys has been a far inferior category to miniseries for years now. Part of this is the streaming services keep wanting to produce fresh shows and let the shows that are a couple seasons old just die on the vine, and part of it is the biggest actors and writers are more enamored to shorter term commitments.
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Post by Incandescence 112 on Apr 15, 2022 6:56:33 GMT -8
I'm going to make a somewhat bold statement here, but I think it's going to be really, really hard for most of the shows currently on TV (even the most acclaimed ones) to comfortably gain a foothold in the BSE discussion. That's partly because (as I alluded to in the DCEU thread), television has grown really wide and fragmented in recent years, and in order for a series to become ingrained in the cultural consciousness - effectively the only way it will be consistently put in such discussion - it needs to gain a level of cultural status and notoriety afforded to very few shows in the modern age. The Sopranos and The Wire aired at a time when no other shows were doing what they did, but nowadays the level of competition is overwhelming. ( The Leftovers was one of the most acclaimed shows of the past decade, but only among the microscopic number of people who watched it. But hey, maybe the broader culture will discover it years later on streaming! Just as soon as they finish catching up on Succession... and Ozark... and Better Things... and hey, is that a new season of Russian Doll? And...) Mind you, I don't think this is necessarily a bad thing. It's great that TV is expanding its horizons, and finding new ways to craft great storytelling beyond gritty hourlong antihero dramas. But it's hard to see the Best Show Ever debate really ever moving fully beyond the shows that sparked it in the modern era, since way too many other shows have been crowding for attention ever since. As for Buffy, I think it was always hurt in critical estimation by its title and teenage female perspective. But it also represents a sort of television program that is more reflective of a bygone era, back when broadcast networks took risks and 22-episode seasons were the norm. Buffy has undoubtedly had an impact on pop culture, but very few of the best shows nowadays have notable Buffy DNA. (And many of its direct successors are other WB/CW shows - Veronica Mars, Supernatural, Arrow and its 'verse.) It will always have dedicated fans, even through all the Whedon garbage, but two decades on, its influence has never quite broken out of a limited niche. P.S. I'd like to apologize, five years later, for the crummy way I reposted this thread. I was not aware at the time of how to properly convert the text to the new forum beyond basic copy-paste functions. Sorry for any inconvenience. Shame. Shame. Also....we're now significantly farther away from the site redesign than this thread was away from the site redesign. Help.
Also, yeah, I think you're right on that count. I don't think The Leftovers and The Americans will ever quite join that exclusive club. Or Succession. It's nothing to do with quality, really (On a personal level I prefer The Shield and Halt and Catch Fire to all 4)--just that the industry has gotten so fragmented that nothing will ever gain a true foothold the way The Sopranos did. Twin Peaks: The Return seems to have the best claim to a consensus 'best show ever' pick of the 2010s, considering the number of people who claimed that it represents peak audiovisual media.
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Post by Incandescence 112 on Apr 15, 2022 7:07:16 GMT -8
As for Buffy, I think it was always hurt in critical estimation by its title and teenage female perspective. But it also represents a sort of television program that is more reflective of a bygone era, back when broadcast networks took risks and 22-episode seasons were the norm. Buffy has undoubtedly had an impact on pop culture, but very few of the best shows nowadays have notable Buffy DNA. (And many of its direct successors are other WB/CW shows - Veronica Mars, Supernatural, Arrow and its 'verse.) It will always have dedicated fans, even through all the Whedon garbage, but two decades on, its influence has never quite broken out of a limited niche. I think Buffy's niche is limited... to very online people and to showrunners of the '00s. It's definitely weird to say there are no really notable shows with Buffy DNA - nearly every SFF show that isn't aiming for high fantasy is either living in or desperately trying to outrun Whedon's shadow, for instance. But IMO you can definitely see Buffy's influence on plenty of subsequent prestige TV shows. I seem to recall an anecdote from Vince Gilligan explicitly saying he gave all the writers on Breaking Bad a set of Buffy DVDs and told them to take notes, and you can definitely see the influence if you peek beneath the surface. Damon Lindelof 100% took cues from Buffy. I think The Americans usually gets compared to one of the white male antihero shows but it's got so much in common with Buffy that I can't help but think they were cribbing. The Kings, a.k.a. the last of the network TV auteurs, clearly love Buffy.
It is true though that Buffy mastered the 22-episode season at more or less the exact moment it fell out of vogue - at least, among serious/"cool" viewers (not that you're uncool for rooting for The Good Wife, Jer). I do think if I made a list of my favorite 22-episode seasons of TV, the top three might just be Buffy seasons. I can't think of anything else that comes close, tbh.
There's also the fact that Russell T. Davies made Doctor Who the biggest show on British television by infusing it with Buffy-esque character drama. It was a long time ago, but the point still stands.
If I were to make a list of the best 22-episode seasons, it'd probably be...
--The golden seasons of Arrested Development, Community, and the US Office
--The third season of The X-Files and the second season of Millennium --The first season of Friday Night Lights --The fifth season of The Good Wife --The third season of Star Trek: The Next Generation and the fourth season of Star Trek: Deep Space Nine --The third and forth seasons of Person of Interest --The second and fifth seasons of Angel --The second and third seasons of Buffy
--The first season of Lost --The first season of Veronica Mars --There's a whole bunch of anime, but 1-season shows are kinda cheating. I was sorely tempted to put the third season of Fringe on there, too.
It's definitely in the top tier of 'shows with 100 episodes or more', and it's probably as academically dissected as any of the prestige dramas. So it's definitely had a sizable impact.
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Post by Jeremy on Apr 15, 2022 8:11:12 GMT -8
I think Buffy's niche is limited... to very online people and to showrunners of the '00s. It's definitely weird to say there are no really notable shows with Buffy DNA - nearly every SFF show that isn't aiming for high fantasy is either living in or desperately trying to outrun Whedon's shadow, for instance. But IMO you can definitely see Buffy's influence on plenty of subsequent prestige TV shows. I seem to recall an anecdote from Vince Gilligan explicitly saying he gave all the writers on Breaking Bad a set of Buffy DVDs and told them to take notes, and you can definitely see the influence if you peek beneath the surface. Damon Lindelof 100% took cues from Buffy. I think The Americans usually gets compared to one of the white male antihero shows but it's got so much in common with Buffy that I can't help but think they were cribbing. The Kings, a.k.a. the last of the network TV auteurs, clearly love Buffy. This is a fair point, and one I hadn't fully considered. Buffy has had certain influence on a broad variety of TV shows, even if much of it is subtextual and through cultural osmosis. For what it's worth, I do think there are a lot of very good shows (certainly beyond the SFF realm) that have Buffy's imprint. It's just a matter that the shows which have the most clear and obvious imprint tend not to be the most acclaimed of 21st century shows, nor the best examples of what TV has accomplished in recent years. (None of which, I must stress, is Buffy's fault as much as it is the way the industry has recognized prestige TV over the years.) I think Buffy also did 22-episode seasons better than most shows - neatly balancing arc episodes with standalones, pacing themselves well, etc. But it's one of those shows that (much like The West Wing, a series that was already dated when I started writing about it and has only grown more so with each passing year) feels more like a culmination of what came before than a forebear of what's happened since. (Even though it has had influence on a lot of shows since.) As for 22-episode seasons as a whole - I championed them for years (Incandescence mentioned a lot of laudable ones), but nowadays, they're even growing rare on the broadcast networks. I think Good Wife S5 and Person of Interest S3 (both of which aired in the 2013-14 season, nearly a decade ago) may well be the last two great 22-episode TV seasons... ever made? Especially since many of the most talented broadcast writers have now migrated to cable and streaming, and the ones who don't (like Tim Minear) are gridlocked into procedural fare. There's another aspect of it though, and that despite the fragmentation, there's not as much prestige effort going towards long running series anymore. HBO and FX are really the only ones really competing in the long running series business these days (there's a couple exceptions of course), and even then only with a couple shows. The best drama series at the Emmys has been a far inferior category to miniseries for years now. Part of this is the streaming services keep wanting to produce fresh shows and let the shows that are a couple seasons old just die on the vine, and part of it is the biggest actors and writers are more enamored to shorter term commitments. Also important points to how the industry is changing. As TV grows more crowded and audience attentions grow shorter and more divided, miniseries (or anothology miniseries) have become creative grounds for writers and catnip to networks and producers. The majority of hourlong shows I've enjoyed in the last couple of years have been one-and-done standalone seasons, and I expect this will continue as TV continues to look for fresh new ways to draw in viewers and subscribers. (Also, yes, HBO and FX are the two networks that are overtly courting the Prestige banner in the bulk of their programming, though most streaming services have simply grown too large for such a banner to cover all their work.)
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Post by Incandescence 112 on Apr 15, 2022 8:46:17 GMT -8
I think Buffy's niche is limited... to very online people and to showrunners of the '00s. It's definitely weird to say there are no really notable shows with Buffy DNA - nearly every SFF show that isn't aiming for high fantasy is either living in or desperately trying to outrun Whedon's shadow, for instance. But IMO you can definitely see Buffy's influence on plenty of subsequent prestige TV shows. I seem to recall an anecdote from Vince Gilligan explicitly saying he gave all the writers on Breaking Bad a set of Buffy DVDs and told them to take notes, and you can definitely see the influence if you peek beneath the surface. Damon Lindelof 100% took cues from Buffy. I think The Americans usually gets compared to one of the white male antihero shows but it's got so much in common with Buffy that I can't help but think they were cribbing. The Kings, a.k.a. the last of the network TV auteurs, clearly love Buffy. This is a fair point, and one I hadn't fully considered. Buffy has had certain influence on a broad variety of TV shows, even if much of it is subtextual and through cultural osmosis. For what it's worth, I do think there are a lot of very good shows (certainly beyond the SFF realm) that have Buffy's imprint. It's just a matter that the shows which have the most clear and obvious imprint tend not to be the most acclaimed of 21st century shows, nor the best examples of what TV has accomplished in recent years. (None of which, I must stress, is Buffy's fault as much as it is the way the industry has recognized prestige TV over the years.) I think Buffy also did 22-episode seasons better than most shows - neatly balancing arc episodes with standalones, pacing themselves well, etc. But it's one of those shows that (much like The West Wing, a series that was already dated when I started writing about it and has only grown more so with each passing year) feels more like a culmination of what came before than a forebear of what's happened since. (Even though it has had influence on a lot of shows since.) As for 22-episode seasons as a whole - I championed them for years (Incandescence mentioned a lot of laudable ones), but nowadays, they're even growing rare on the broadcast networks. I think Good Wife S5 and Person of Interest S3 (both of which aired in the 2013-14 season, nearly a decade ago) may well be the last two great 22-episode TV seasons... ever made? Especially since many of the most talented broadcast writers have now migrated to cable and streaming, and the ones who don't (like Tim Minear) are gridlocked into procedural fare. There's another aspect of it though, and that despite the fragmentation, there's not as much prestige effort going towards long running series anymore. HBO and FX are really the only ones really competing in the long running series business these days (there's a couple exceptions of course), and even then only with a couple shows. The best drama series at the Emmys has been a far inferior category to miniseries for years now. Part of this is the streaming services keep wanting to produce fresh shows and let the shows that are a couple seasons old just die on the vine, and part of it is the biggest actors and writers are more enamored to shorter term commitments. Also important points to how the industry is changing. As TV grows more crowded and audience attentions grow shorter and more divided, miniseries (or anothology miniseries) have become creative grounds for writers and catnip to networks and producers. The majority of hourlong shows I've enjoyed in the last couple of years have been one-and-done standalone seasons, and I expect this will continue as TV continues to look for fresh new ways to draw in viewers and subscribers. (Also, yes, HBO and FX are the two networks that are overtly courting the Prestige banner in the bulk of their programming, though most streaming services have simply grown too large for such a banner to cover all their work.) I guess the difference here is that I'm more pessimistic about this state of tv than you are, lol. I know I'm being greedy--22 episode seasons were an absolute nightmare to produce--but I still feel like that one-and-done approach lets go what was great about television as a medium. Which was really taking advantage of the longer length compared to films to build up to moments and episodes that wouldn't have been possible with a film. It feels like just turning tv into 'longer films' loses something along the way. Comparing Picard to The Next Generation helps make my case very easily, because the former's bloody awful!
2013-14 must've been a pretty fun time, eh?
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