|
|
Post by Jeremy on Mar 19, 2017 15:54:56 GMT -8
Jeremy:
I am indeed in favor of Buffy being included in the Best Show Ever discussion. I mentioned this on the comments section to "Chosen", shortly before the whole discussion made the jumps to the forums.
Anyway, this is a seriously amazing discussion, y'all. I may disagree with Freudian and some others here on several points, but that doesn't mean that they haven't offered some serious gum-crackingly interesting thoughts.
I'm tempted to jump in with my own lengthy thoughts on the matter, but most of you are probably exhausted by this point.
EDIT: wait, Boscalyn just wrote a huge post. Guess I was wrong.
|
|
|
|
Post by Jeremy on Mar 19, 2017 15:55:11 GMT -8
FV:
It's fine for all you. For me, it's gone midnight.
|
|
|
|
Post by Jeremy on Mar 19, 2017 15:55:24 GMT -8
Bosc:
I dig you, Freud. I made that post at midnight EST and was amazed to find three pages had sprouted overnight when I logged in the next evening. But in any case, I'm not letting you wiggle out of my question based on semantics. Name a candidate for best show ever where four women interact in the fashion of the previously-aforementioned "Listening to Fear."
And Jeremy, I hadn't properly addressed the rebuttals to my OP yet. I think there's more debate to be had here.
|
|
|
|
Post by Jeremy on Mar 19, 2017 15:55:50 GMT -8
Iguana:
[Boscalyn wrote:
Buffy isn't necessarily the root of the STRONG FEMALE PROTAGONIST; Xena and Gabrielle predate her by two years and likely paved the way for Buffy and friends. But Buffy is a rare show where the women exist independent of men. Pretty much all the women on Breaking Bad are romantically involved with the male protagonists. The Wire is only marginally better in this regard... someone who's better acquainted with the show can correct me, but IIRC the only significant female character who isn't "protagonist's wife" is Kima. (And hell, even she has a "protagonist's wife.")
In any case, I'd love to see you name another candidate for "best TV show ever" that has four women interacting freely in the way they do in the aforementioned scene in "Listening to Fear."
(DEEP BREATH)]
"The Shield" has a good few interesting female characters who aren't love interests. CCH Pounder is very good. But it's still set in a male-dominated police station and if the show has a protagonist it's Vic the crooked-yet-awesome cop. (their view, not mine. The guy is a waste of self-deluded space. And to be fair, the show seems to be to a large extend about deconstructing that initial view of Vic. But I digress.)
In general the shows most often shortlisted for B.S.E. are the stories of various white males. Not the Wire though, presumably. Damn. It's hard to have this discussion without having seen The Wire.
In conclusion: watch OitnB when you get the chance, because it's great.
And yeah, I should sleep too. Eh well. On the one hand, there's sleep. On the other, there's coffee.
|
|
|
|
Post by Jeremy on Mar 19, 2017 15:56:01 GMT -8
FV:
Six Feet Under has lots of strong, indeprndent female characters.
It's kind of hard to write lengthy responses on an iPod.
|
|
|
|
Post by Jeremy on Mar 19, 2017 15:56:21 GMT -8
Iguana:
There's a difference though, between a show that's about a (white) guy having a few (or even quite a few) interesting women as well, and a show being about women. (and possibly having some interesting male characters as well.)
|
|
|
|
Post by Jeremy on Mar 19, 2017 15:56:44 GMT -8
Jeremy:
[Boscalyn wrote:
Name a candidate for best show ever where four women interact in the fashion of the previously-aforementioned "Listening to Fear."
And Jeremy, I hadn't properly addressed the rebuttals to my OP yet. I think there's more debate to be had here.]
Well, I do have a lot to say, but for the moment, I'll just say that every time you bring up the "four women interacting" thing, my mind immediately goes to that scene in the West Wing episode "Dead Irish Writers", in which CJ, Donna, Abbey, and Amy all share a scene together in which they sit around and talk with one another in about as candid a fashion as I can think of.
Actually, The West Wing never seems to be in contention for BSE discussions, either, so that scene probably doesn't fit your criteria. But I still think it's a great scene in a particularly male-dominant show.
|
|
|
|
Post by Jeremy on Mar 19, 2017 15:56:56 GMT -8
FV:
SFU has about the same number of female characters as male characters, and I think it must pass the Bechdel test much more often than, say, The Shield or Breaking Bad. Not quite on the same level as Buffy or OitNB, but still very good when it comes to gender representation.
|
|
|
|
Post by Jeremy on Mar 19, 2017 15:57:10 GMT -8
Jay:
Freudian Vampire wrote:
SFU has about the same mumber of female characters as male characters, and I think it must pass the Bechdel test much more often than, say, The Shield or Breaking Bad. Not quite on the same level as Buffy or OitNB, but still very good when it comes to gender representation.
Certainly. Brenda, Claire, and Ruth are all developed characters and compelling for their own reasons, Brenda's compulsiveness (she can be taken as an exploration of the possible pitfalls of the "manic pixie" archetype), Claire's desire for expression in a household that resisted it, Ruth's going from child-bride whose adult self-conception was defined by the presence of someone else to a widow and recovering from that. SFU is a show that I would love if it were able to be in the discussion, and if it had the strength for its whole run that it did for the first two seasons, it would be there. Sadly, three and four meander, though it finishes brilliantly.
But for Boscalyn's specific criteria, SFU doesn't quite fit there. There are balances between the gender dynamics of the cast, but you don't too often see more than two of them engaged with each other, except in the finale.
(It remains, however, one series that I would be interested in if someone wanted to take it on as a review. I think Mikejer agreed with me on that when I floated the idea in the past)
|
|
|
|
Post by Jeremy on Mar 19, 2017 15:57:29 GMT -8
Scott:
[MikeJer wrote:
Quote:
Clearly I should post more unpopular opinions.
Your opinion is shared by -- assuming I counted right -- at least half of the people in this thread that have offered an opinion on the matter. Unpopular? Hardly.
Those in favor of Buffy being in the B.S.E. discussion: Myself, Noah, Boscalyn, Jeremy
Those against: FV, Iguana, Keith, Alex C., and Other Scott (seems to be leaning this way, correct me if I'm wrong Scott!)]
I'm not sure I understand what "in favour of being in the discussion" means. So I'll be the guy who sits in the middle wondering why the whole war started in the first place.
Bosc, while I agree that Game of Thrones is not a proper counterpoint to the notion that Buffy being fantasy is part of the reason that Buffy is not typically in the discussion of BSE, I can't throw my support 100% behind the notion. It could be that the reason there's no fantasy shows really in the discussion is the right fantasy show hasn't come along yet. But I could be wrong.
|
|
|
|
Post by Jeremy on Mar 19, 2017 15:57:56 GMT -8
Odi:
For wars, this is the most cordial and erudite I have witnessed.
Keep kicking ass, CT.
|
|
|
|
Post by Jeremy on Mar 19, 2017 15:58:08 GMT -8
Mike:
Quote:
I'm not sure I understand what "in favour of being in the discussion" means.
Huh? "Those in favor of Buffy being in the B.S.E discussion." BSE = Best Show Ever. I marked you down for being against that notion based on previous comments of yours. But, again, feel free to let me know if that's not the case.
On SFU:
I've always been a bit on the fence when it comes to SFU. There's little doubt that the first two seasons are excellent television. But as Jay pointed out, 3 and 4 meander all over the place and completely severed my interest in the show. Early Season 5 is a bit better, but it's not until the final arc of the show that it regains its composure. It does end on quite the high note though!
In total, to me, about half the show simply isn't very good. That's quite a large percentage. So, yeah, on the fence with whether SFU will be reviewed here, which is a round-about way of saying that I'm still open to the possibility.
|
|
|
|
Post by Jeremy on Mar 19, 2017 15:58:19 GMT -8
Odi:
Only show commonly regarded to be in the God-tier echelon I haven't seen mentioned is Deadwood. Anyone else seen it and feel strongly one way or another about its status?
|
|
|
|
Post by Jeremy on Mar 19, 2017 15:58:37 GMT -8
Scott:
I understand what the terms mean, I just am not sure what it would imply. I guess it depends whether the best show ever discussion is on a personal or community level. On a personal level, it's not a show that I have in consideration right now. There are shows I can say with certainty that I like better.
But on a community level, I can't be opposed to Buffy being in consideration. It does a lot of things well that understandably resonate with people very strongly, and I can't dispute that. So if people want to introduce it into the discussion, I'm not going to dismiss them. if Buffy hits exactly the right notes such that someone wants to proclaim it the greatest show, that's fantastic.
|
|
|
|
Post by Jeremy on Mar 19, 2017 15:59:22 GMT -8
BoogtehWoog:
Odi et Amo wrote:
Only show commonly regarded to be in the God-tier echelon I haven't seen mentioned is Deadwood. Anyone else seen it and feel strongly one way or another about its status?
It is a superbly written and acted show. I definitely think it deserves to be in the god-tier echelon and, while I would give BtVS the nomination for BSE, Deadwood would certainly be right up there with it.
Ultimately, I feel there is no such thing as an objective BSE. It just isn't going to happen. You can debate until you are blue in the face, but personal tastes will ultimately override all else. I recognize that Buffy has its failings, but so do these others shows that are in the running. Buffy never had the strongest plots, but its characterization to me is above all else and that matters a great deal more to me than plots. Someone else might care more about plots and less about characterization, which means that Buffy could never be their greatest show.
|
|
