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Post by Zarnium on Jun 15, 2017 11:29:45 GMT -8
I thought that I'd give Attack on Titan its own thread, so that the general Anime thread isn't drowned out with spoilery posts about one specific show. I put it in the Television section for simplicity's sake, but this thread can cover the TV show, the manga, the movies, the novels, the video games... maybe a stage play someday? Just about the only medium that the franchise is unlikely to come to eventually are pre-recorded dreams beamed telepathically to your brain while you sleep. Do note that the manga is considerably further along in the story than the anime is, so there will likely be spoilers for stuff that will appear in future seasons of the anime. Spoilers from that far out should probably be marked at the beginning of any discussion containing them.
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Post by Zarnium on Jun 15, 2017 13:20:55 GMT -8
Speaking of which, for my next post, here be SPOILERS from volume 21!
Now that we've finally gotten to that damn basement, I like how the revelations from Grisha's books give insight into so many previously mysterious goings-on and turn a lot of previous assumptions on their head. So, now we know, in broad terms, what the motives of each side in this conflict are. For one, this explains why the Reiss family member who inherits the will of the first king and the knowledge of the outside world always chooses to keep everyone inside the walls; the walls aren't so much an undesirable prison as they are the only place on the planet where the Eldians can live in peace from the Marleyans, and in a way, the wild titans are keeping those in the walls safe rather than being much of a threat, absent human interference, like destroying the gates. There are ultimately forces much worse than the titans on the outside, and the walls are the only thing keeping everyone safe. On the shifters' side, if even half of what the Marleyans say is true, they have a pretty good reason to hate the Eldians, due to being subjugated for well over a thousand years, with the Marleyans only having been on top for a little over a hundred. Of course, every Eldian who participated in the old regime is dead and the living generation of Eldians are innocent, but old wounds heal slowly. The shifters in particular are Eldians who grew up in the slums, only to be shamed into hating their own race and forced to destroy them, so it's no wonder that Reiner has stuck with his mission after that kind of cultural programming. Not to mention that for him, destroying the gate isn't as terrible an action as it seems to those inside; he knows that there are still billions of humans living in safety, the wall citizens believe that the entire human race is in danger of extinction. Indeed, the whole rhetoric of the shifters being enemies of "humanity" or the Scouts being the saviors of "humanity" must sound pretty absurd to him, as the only thing at stake is the fate of one very small country. Humanity as a whole is in fine shape.
It's also interesting that the reason there's now an increasing amount of tension between the walls and the continent isn't because of something fantastical or particularly titan-related, it's... fossil fuel, something completely mundane. And technology is progressing fast enough that whoever has control of various titan powers is becoming irrelevant, and the Eldians are at risk mostly just because before too long, the Marleyans will be able to attack them with ordinary weapons.
EDIT: Oh, also, something strange I've noticed; in the official English translation of the manga, the Marleyans refer to the titanization and banishment of Eldians as "sending you to your Heaven." If what I've read elsewhere is true, that phrase can also be translated as "sending you to Paradise," which makes more sense, given that the island is called Paradis. Maybe that's one moment where the official translators dropped the ball?
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Post by Jay on Jun 16, 2017 12:43:14 GMT -8
That's probably a dropped ball on the translator's part but it's one of those things where Japan likes to pick and choose its religious imagery and no one knows whether it's supposed to mean anything or just be texture.
PRETTY BIG SPOILERS HEREAFTER FOR ANYONE NOT CAUGHT UP WITH VOL 21
Thoughts on Armin/Bertholdt?
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Post by Zarnium on Jun 16, 2017 14:20:47 GMT -8
It seems that some people feel that Armin being brought back to life was cheap and that he should have stayed dead, but I actually like how it was handled. The general narrative rule for this sort of thing is that there needs to a "price" for a character to be brought back to life, and in this case, the price is that Erwin had to die and Armin has to live with the burden that comes with having such immense power, when that's not something he would have ever chosen for himself. It also provided some interesting contrasts between Erwin and Armin in regards to their comparative merits that I'd never thought about before. They're both actually pretty similar in their talents, always thinking outside the box and coming up with plans quickly in order to accomplish their goals, but the big difference is that Erwin's plans typically involve the deaths of many soldiers or civilians as collateral damage, while Armin's usually leave everyone unscathed. It makes one wonder; how many of the deaths that Erwin has caused were truly necessary, and given the high casualty rate of the Scouts that is stated early on, is that an unavoidable figure, or does it exist because Erwin puts the Scouts in unnecessary risk for what he believes is the greater good? It's hard to say, given that we don't see very many expeditions from before the fall of Shiganshina, though it's implied that he's much better at bringing people back alive than Shadis was. Ethics aside, I'm inclined to say that Armin is a more valuable asset, just because he manages to find solutions that are much less strenuous on their resources.
Of course, the weighing of Armin and Erwin's relative worth as soldiers isn't really what anyone has in mind while deciding who to save; everyone ultimately wants to save whoever they are closest to. Erwin is chosen mostly just because Levi and Hange outrank everyone else, but he refuses at the last minute by pulling his arm away, and Levi gives the injection to Armin instead. It's up to speculation as to exactly why he refused; maybe he felt Armin deserved it more, or he wanted to die so that he could finally be at peace and wouldn't have to continue chipping away at his soul, which is Levi's reasoning. It's also interesting to note that Erwin's primary motivation for coming on the mission at all is so that he could be there when they enter the basement, and he says shortly before being wounded that his biggest disappointment in dying is that he'll never know the truth about the titans and the outside world. This is a pretty clever way to make the reader invested in his plight, since anyone who's been following the series for any length of time has themselves been desperate to get to that basement for years, so his situation is instantly relatable.
As for Armin being the one to kill Bertholt, I'm not sure what significance can be drawn from that, other than that neither of them seem like the kind of person who would wield the most physically powerful titan power, being rather meek and unassuming.
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Post by Zarnium on Jun 17, 2017 8:27:28 GMT -8
Season 3... Is already confirmed?? For next year, no less? It has me a bit worried that it ends with them gazing out at the sea, implying that this is going to rapidly bring us close to the manga's current release, again putting the show at risk of overtaking the manga. At the rate of roughly 4 volumes = 12 episodes that they've been doing, they have more than enough material to work with to properly get us to around whenever the time skip happens if they do a ~24 episode season, which I imagine both comes very soon after volume 21 and would be a natural stopping point. But then there's not going to be much more material to work with after that, even factoring in releases from between now and whenever season 4 would begin production next year, assuming that there won't be a huge production gap again.
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Post by Jay on Jun 17, 2017 10:28:13 GMT -8
There is a time skip of a few years that comes pretty soon after where you are in the manga. The ocean scene itself is what concludes vol 22. I've read where the mangaka had his intentions to end the manga earlier in terms of chapter release but found that some of the stories were taking longer to develop properly than he had anticipated. I can say that it feels as if the current chapters of the manga are ramping up towards something, but it's hard for me to imagine right now with how things are going that the manga will be able to wrap up within a year. We'll see, I guess, but I think that otherwise they've gotten to where they're pretty good at syncing things up and the second anime of FMA ended just after the manga.
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Post by Jay on Jun 26, 2017 22:36:21 GMT -8
I'm watching an episode of AoT right now, tenth of the second season, a few quick thoughts. WHICH HAS SPOILERS BOTH FOR THE ANIME POINT I AM AT AND UP TO THE 21ST VOLUME WHERE ZARNIUM HAS READ SINCE HE AND I ARE BASICALLY TALKING TO EACH OTHER
* I don't think that Eren has been a character of much depth or nuance since he runs on the basis of his passions at any given time, i.e., revenge. However, many shonen characters have their flaws and given the sort of itemization I gave of AoT in the past, it's interesting to see revenge ascribed to a protagonist and it being something that gets him into trouble more often than not. I wish that there was more to latch onto, but a minor subversion is still welcome. * I rather like the dialogue between Ymir and Betholdt about whether or not they remember eating the shifter that gave them their powers. There are no easy parallels with the war motif, but it's interesting that no one knows exactly how they became how they are, whereas the killing aspect is more memorable. I feel like, in the overall reckoning of things, what I want to see in the future out of the manga is how Reiner responds to what Ymir is saying, since Bertholdt's response is basically on the table here. * Speaking of Ymir, it's a little weird that she didn't notice the smoke signals until relatively late? That being said, it has absolutely no bearing on the plot so whatever and I wouldn't take anything away for that reason. * The 3D-maneuvering gear sequences in the forest resembled flying more than anything else, which is unfortunate. * In the moment, I probably neglected notice of Christa/Historia coming as part of the scouting group, which i I think helps to affirm her importance in the upcoming arc. * "It is not known where Ymir's hometown is located. However, its location is most certainly outside the confines of the walls." Thanks mid-episode transition commentary. You're a real pal. * Really, strongly hoping that Reiner's affinity for Historia/Christa is a plot point. One imagines that the plot point of Bertholdt being fond of Annie now serves the double plot point of sympathy and setting that up later. * Since the disparities of plot are my obligation to point out as a manga-first type, Ymir's manga backstory didn't recall identifiable orphans as I remember, just herself. That being said, the anime backstory being more robust reminds me of the foil it has with the propaganda of Marley, etc, which pleases me. Unfortunately, it rips open another hole in that Ymir claims to be of royal lineage and later it's suggested that Marley would want to preserve those of royal lineage in the hopes of getting even the least bit of the coordinate's power, which causes her being titanized and pushed off the wall to make a whole lot less sense. If the anime producers had read the manga to the point where this was airing, this wouldn't have been a mistake they would make. But hey, sixty years of leeway, whatever. (For the record, Marcel's death isn't quite the ambush it is in the anime either, though the anime handles Ymir in a more comprehensive way)
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Post by Zarnium on Jun 27, 2017 5:42:47 GMT -8
* I don't think that Eren has been a character of much depth or nuance since he runs on the basis of his passions at any given time, i.e., revenge. However, many shonen characters have their flaws and given the sort of itemization I gave of AoT in the past, it's interesting to see revenge ascribed to a protagonist and it being something that gets him into trouble more often than not. I wish that there was more to latch onto, but a minor subversion is still welcome. I similarly thought he was a rather dull character in the olden days, but now that the story has progressed so much further, I think it's clear that his basic shonen character archetype is constantly being used to subvert standard shonen anime tropes, as you say. Like, if it weren't for the fact that he happened to have shifting abilities that he didn't know about, he would've been one of the first to die at Trost because of his overconfidence. He's also the weakest titan-shifter as a fighter, and rarely comes out on top in any altercation with the others, constantly being beaten and kidnapped and saved by someone else. Plus, I think the manga has been focusing on him a little less in the post-season 2 volumes, having more of a true ensemble cast instead of mostly being about the Shiganshina trio. I've noticed that too, but that's probably just because A) animating complex movement sequences for lengthy conversations with no real action would be expensive, and B) it would be very distracting to have the characters bouncing around all over the place while trying to focus on dialogue and facial expressions. Thus, I can give it a pass. One can probably assume that they're "really" using the gear in the way they're supposed to, and we're just not seeing it. Besides, they did the exact same thing in season 1, right? Sometimes the transitions have interesting background information and diagrams, other times it's something pointless like "scouting rations are capable of fulfilling all dietary needs, and they are flavored so that they don't taste too bad" or something. That said, it somehow never occurred to me before seeing Ymir's flashback recently that she comes from the same place as Reiner and Bertholt, though it should've been pretty obvious. I thought the point was that she wasn't actually of royal lineage? She was set up as a false figurehead by some as-yet unknown person, and was then complicit in the falsehood until being banished.
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Post by Jay on Jun 27, 2017 11:36:42 GMT -8
I thought the point was that she wasn't actually of royal lineage? She was set up as a false figurehead by some as-yet unknown person, and was then complicit in the falsehood until being banished. This is a mild spoiler for the next volume, but Marley is looking for people of royal lineage who might have powers but they have no idea how to identify them. There's no test that they know of that conclusively determines it one way or the other. The easiest explanation is that they knew she was lying, but if there was a chance that she wasn't, they'd want to do science on her.
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Post by Zarnium on Jun 27, 2017 12:31:38 GMT -8
True, but they can't just believe every cultist who says that they're of royal lineage without any proof. There are probably tons of Eldians who say that they're royalty, but are either mistaken or lying. Violently quelling the sorts of groups that Ymir was a part of serves a purpose to the Marley government by instilling fear and submission in the Eldians, while giving them leniency does the opposite. And really, any investigation into Ymir's past that the government might be able to do would reveal that she's just some random orphan.
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Post by Jay on Jun 30, 2017 22:57:20 GMT -8
Minor thoughts had while watching the penultimate episode of the second season of AoT:
* I don't mind the CGI usage for the titans if they feel compelled to use it somewhere (I really don't like the all-CGI of Berserk, as I've said), but sometimes they use it for other stuff like the scouting corps on horseback racing towards a larger, distant target and it's hard to look at.
* I had an observation that only works if you've read through Vol 22 so I'll just table that. I also have a prediction that would be relevant through where the manga is that I have to bite my tongue on. Le sigh. Even though I'm not going to comment on those items specifically, I'm still awed by how well the events of the manga are syncing up with the events of the anime.
* I think that moving the manga material about Ymir up to this stage in the anime serves it well in that it brings out Ymir's interest in Historia better. It also, in a way, reinforces some of the earlier themes that were not handled especially well, namely, one idea being that joining the military was less miserable than having to deal with the threat of starvation. Ymir's background and her various changes in roles, I think, alludes to that as well, although it's not made as explicit. For as well as the show handles its "war sucks" motif, a lot of the auxiliary suffering brought on by famine and refugee influxes isn't something we see except in scattered instances where the unwashed villagers decry the military that ostensibly tries to protect them.
* The clan Ackerman makes for an interesting set within the AoT universe as they're supposedly immune to some of the... let's say "collective unconscious" stuff, while being themselves, seemingly more predisposed to pitiless behavior between Mikasa, Levi, and Kenny as a constellation. One of my hopes as we get into the final stretch of AoT, which I think we are, is to get some kind of explanation of what their collective deal is, but I'm not sure what source that would come from right now unless they're ethnically Marleyan and just sympathizers, which could be an interesting twist that would defy existing testimony.
* I know we rag on Erwin for his predisposition towards suicide missions but leading a horde of titans into the shifters was observant and a pretty badass move on his part.
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Post by Zarnium on Jul 1, 2017 4:33:43 GMT -8
* I don't mind the CGI usage for the titans if they feel compelled to use it somewhere (I really don't like the all-CGI of Berserk, as I've said), but sometimes they use it for other stuff like the scouting corps on horseback racing towards a larger, distant target and it's hard to look at. I'm the opposite. I'm not a big fan of the CGI Colossal Titan, but I don't really mind CGI being used for masses of small entities in establishing shots. That said, they do this because it's cheaper and requires less manpower, and the Japanese animation industry is having a bit of a crisis at the moment due to poor working conditions driving animators into other fields. The anime adds or moves around a lot of scenes, usually for the better and with Isayama's blessing, like the scenes with the Military Police cadets in Stohess or consolidating most of the training flashbacks. There are only two moments where I think the anime made changes that were clearly detrimental; One, most of Eren's scenes with Annie were absent from the first season, so his breakdown when confronting her in Stohess doesn't make a lot of sense. Two, the flashback with the talking titan is cut entirely from the series proper, even though it showed up pretty early in the manga and is even explicitly referenced by Hange during her first meeting with Eren. It's an awfully important scene that gives a lot of clues about the true nature of the titans and life outside the walls while potentially connecting to Ymir as well, but it only exists as an extra OVA that most people haven't seen and which can't be referenced by the rest of the series. I'm guessing that at the time the first season was being produced, no one on the production team realized its significance, so they saw it as an easy scene to cut. That's a shame, because it dovetails nicely with the Ymir flashbacks. The original Ackermans being either Marleyan sympathizers or seeking refuge from the Marley government would be my guess. I still have no clue where the Asians came from.
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Post by Jay on Jul 1, 2017 10:29:02 GMT -8
I'm the opposite. I'm not a big fan of the CGI Colossal Titan, but I don't really mind CGI being used for masses of small entities in establishing shots. That said, they do this because it's cheaper and requires less manpower, and the Japanese animation industry is having a bit of a crisis at the moment due to poor working conditions driving animators into other fields. Hadn't really thought about it from an economic standpoint but you're likely right as some of those schedules are pretty brutal, hence the absurd amount of padding you'll get in year-round franchises. I will admit that the Colossal was hard to look at but I feel like in some respects it gives them a sense of scale that can work in an interesting way. Here's hoping that they get better at it, says the guy who still nerds out over practical effects in film. I saw that OVA, I think before I started reading the manga, so my memories of what was going on in there are all garbled. On consulting the Wiki, I now get what happened. What I remember of the Talking Titan and the Ilse flashback from the manga was mostly Hange excitedly referencing it, and for a long time I thought that the OVA was an attempt to flesh that out more. Now I realize that the manga portion of that was an extra chapter added to the fifth volume, which means it's not the type of material you're going to be getting if you just read scanlations online, so I probably never saw it. But I would venture that was the reason why it was thought of as less relevant, because it wasn't an official release chapter, just extra material. I also noted that "oh hey, the talking titan is THAT person, cool" or at least I think that I get that now. My guess is that they came from Asia But as the world of the series has expanded and you realize that these aren't the last remnants of humanity but, to outsiders, apparent cultists, you wonder what the world at large thinks of it and whether they don't get involved mostly because they don't know what Marley's capable of. That being said, I regard the core of what's going on here to be between Marley and the island and so it's sort of like FMA in that, yeah, I know there are a bunch of other countries surrounding that have bits and pieces of their own history mixed in, but I don't need to know about them and if it's never really addressed, no big loss.
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Post by Zarnium on Jul 1, 2017 17:13:03 GMT -8
Hadn't really thought about it from an economic standpoint but you're likely right as some of those schedules are pretty brutal, hence the absurd amount of padding you'll get in year-round franchises. I will admit that the Colossal was hard to look at but I feel like in some respects it gives them a sense of scale that can work in an interesting way. Here's hoping that they get better at it, says the guy who still nerds out over practical effects in film. I will say, it is at least much better than the CGI in Blassreiter. My god, that was one of the ugliest animated shows I've ever seen. Come to think of it, the only animated show or movie I've seen that seemlessly integrated CGI with traditional animation without looking cheap or hacky is Disney's Treasure Planet. Oh, all this time, I thought the entire scene was just a normal manga chapter, not extra material. That changes things, now it makes a lot more sense why it's not in the standard anime lineup. Well, yes, but what I'm wondering is how and why they're in the walls with the Eldians. It's possible that there's not really any further significance to it, and Mikasa is just the token Japanese character who's more awesome than everyone else. That's not unheard of, after all; Monster's protagonist is Japanese even though it takes place in Germany, and his race is never relevant to the story. He's just Japanese for no reason.
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Post by Jay on Jul 1, 2017 21:12:50 GMT -8
Ugh, yeah, Monster... I got into the home stretch on that one and gave up, although I've probably mentioned as much before. Watching Berserk right now there's also a way that you can look at it as being about European imperialism that isn't that tricky.
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