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Post by Jay on Nov 12, 2017 17:33:03 GMT -8
re: Spacey,
It pains me a little to mention this because he was one of my favorite actors previously (obviously, no comparison to those victims whom he actually damaged), but a friend of mine formerly worked front desk at an upscale hotel, frequented by Hollywood types and their handlers. When all this started to go down, she mentioned to me that assistants whom Spacey worked with warned the help "oh, by the way, this could potentially happen..." so, much like the issues with Weinstein, it was a public secret that Spacey was gay and somewhat predatory about it.
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Post by Zarnium on Nov 13, 2017 12:01:34 GMT -8
One of the weirdest things about this slew of sexual misconduct allegations is that some of the accused people condemned some of the other accused people before being implicated themselves. Like, George Takei condemned Roy Moore mostly (entirely?) on the basis of an alleged victim's testimony, but is now claiming innocence against his own allegations. Assuming for the sake of argument that he is innocent, it puts him in a really strange position as far as his activism goes. According to everything he's ever advocated for, we should consider him guilty, but he's implicitly asking us to arbitrarily give him a pass while still condemning everyone facing similar accusations.
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Post by Jeremy on Nov 13, 2017 12:28:35 GMT -8
I think political bias factors into that. Takei is very vocally liberal in his policies (note his Twitter avatar), and he's spoken out against Moore even before the allegations were made. Takei also hasn't criticized most of the other Hollywood people accused of harassment, presumably since most of them share his politics.
It's kind of like the Bill Clinton/Donald Trump divide - many people believe the assault/rape allegations that have been leveled against one President, while thinking the ones against the other are simply fabricated. And which is which depends on their political leanings.
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Post by unkinhead on Nov 14, 2017 17:18:19 GMT -8
One of the weirdest things about this slew of sexual misconduct allegations is that some of the accused people condemned some of the other accused people before being implicated themselves. Like, George Takei condemned Roy Moore mostly (entirely?) on the basis of an alleged victim's testimony, but is now claiming innocence against his own allegations. Assuming for the sake of argument that he is innocent, it puts him in a really strange position as far as his activism goes. According to everything he's ever advocated for, we should consider him guilty, but he's implicitly asking us to arbitrarily give him a pass while still condemning everyone facing similar accusations. I feel like it's pretty simple... a liberal ethos tends to drive liberals towards hypocrisy and utopian kind of thinking. Just from a psychological perspective, liberals are more interested in changing the status quo, sometimes not even realizing that the quo is status for good reason, or at least because there aren't any better alternatives. It seems if you were to take the worst of liberalism and sum it up into a series of traits, a kind of delusion with regards to reality (naivete) and hypocrisy would spring immediately to the forefront. Condemning someone on accusation alone is pretty in-line with said ethos and of course because of this the possibility of it backfiring is a thing. Someone who denies reality likely doesn't understand themselves very well either, hence events like Joss Whedon, and well, this. But I mean, luckily for him, this doesn't make Takei any more or less innocent, just dumb and naive. Conservatives on the other hand... tend towards hypocrisy and delusion. Edit: I think political bias factors into that. Takei is very vocally liberal in his policies (note his Twitter avatar), and he's spoken out against Moore even before the allegations were made. Takei also hasn't criticized most of the other Hollywood people accused of harassment, presumably since most of them share his politics. It's kind of like the Bill Clinton/Donald Trump divide - many people believe the assault/rape allegations that have been leveled against one President, while thinking the ones against the other are simply fabricated. And which is which depends on their political leanings. Oh you basically said this already...damnit.
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Post by Jeremy on Nov 14, 2017 19:24:49 GMT -8
I cut Takei's response to this a bit of slack because he's 80 years old, and he's spent the last half-century listening to people come up to him and say "Warp seven, Mr. Sulu!" I imagine that has somewhat messed with his mind.
On the other hand, his recent Howard Stern interview doesn't really paint him in a noble light. So you can draw your own conclusions there.
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Post by Zarnium on Nov 14, 2017 20:49:43 GMT -8
Well, given how much I've complained about how the Democratic Party has let both Clintons off the hook for their sexual misconduct and subsequent downplaying/covering up of it in blatant contradiction to their stated political ideals and condemnations of other figures who have been accused on roughly the same amount of evidence, no one needs to convince me that liberals aren't quite all there in the head.
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Post by unkinhead on Nov 14, 2017 22:48:21 GMT -8
both Clintons off the hook for their sexual misconduct Both Clintons??? Did I miss a major news story?
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Post by Zarnium on Nov 15, 2017 4:04:14 GMT -8
Bill for sexual misconduct and downplaying it, Hillary just for downplaying it.
That wording was a bit misleading, looking at it now.
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Post by Zarnium on Nov 15, 2017 6:48:30 GMT -8
Holy crap, sites like The Atlantic and Vox are actually running articles condemning Bill Clinton's actions now.
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Post by Jeremy on Nov 15, 2017 7:38:59 GMT -8
I think the New York Times started the ball rolling there. They had an editorial yesterday which stated that Juanita Broaddrick deserved to be believed.
It's a good sign to have people in Clinton's own party condemning him for his actions. Although it probably helps that his wife isn't currently in the White House.
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Post by Jay on Nov 15, 2017 8:52:19 GMT -8
It also probably helps that there are multiple sexual assault scandals going on and that this information on Bill is nothing new. This way, the cynical voice inside my head says, we can appear to hold a powerful man accountable while more concerted efforts emerge elsewhere to take down active predators.
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Post by Zarnium on Nov 15, 2017 9:01:12 GMT -8
I'm not thrilled that this is only happening now that condemning the Clintons is easy and we're well past the point in time when something productive could've been done about all this, but I'll take what I can get. It has to happen sometime. This is the most I've seen the left actually do to help themselves since the election rather than waste their time defending the honor of all the dead weight they've been carrying.
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Post by Jay on Nov 15, 2017 12:14:58 GMT -8
Ehhhh.... I mean, it's a vexed legacy with the Clintons. There was some good stuff that they did, but I'm not fond of political dynasties generally and there was almost a conscious attempt at linking them with the Kennedies for a while... They're always going to have that tinge of nostalgia because it was a period where the party was brought back to executive-level relevance, while overlooking that they're partly responsible for attitudes about corporate influences being on both sides now and the solution always being to move more towards the center.
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Post by ThirdMan on Nov 15, 2017 18:48:28 GMT -8
So, who would you guys like to see the Democrats push for the presidency in 2020? Is there anyone out there without any (real or perceived) baggage? Anyone who's never slighted anyone else in their entire life, and has lived a totally pristine existence? OK, that last part was (sort of) a joke, but who ya got? Who lives up to your moral and idealistic standards? Or are you still waiting for that individual to emerge? Obviously Jeremy just wants Trump to stay in there, so he doesn't need to answer the question.
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Post by Zarnium on Nov 15, 2017 19:48:01 GMT -8
Sherrod Brown might be alright. I'd have to do more research to say for sure.
Really, anyone who isn't as ludicrously embroiled in scandal or as obstinately entitled as Hillary Clinton would at least be acceptable.
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