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Post by Jeremy on Nov 22, 2021 21:41:08 GMT -8
I'm worried it's going to take a handful of obvious potshots at musical theater tropes without, like, any of the genuine emotion that comes out of a really good musical, and instead we're going to get a lot of really risque jokes that aren't really all that funny because they're too fixated on nudging you towards the form of the musical theater number rather than taking it for granted and thus allowing the real humor to happen. There's some self-knowing humor in that vein, and I did get a bit distracted by it (the scene which parodies "Trouble" stands out as particularly heavy-handed, though that may be because I'm more familiar with that song than some of the others). It's one of those shows that tries to work on two levels, being both a charming recreation of those old Hollywood musicals while also poking fun at their tropes and clichés. Some of these jokes are pat and uninspired (did you know that 1940s musicals have outdated gender roles? Ho ho), but others work by having the writers and cast fully commit to the absurdity of the premise. Certainly the show shares some tongue-in-cheek similarities with Galavant, but it benefits from the half-hour format as that show did by never having to get too serious in older to sustain a longer running time. (Recall that Crazy Ex-Girlfriend was originally pitched as a half-hour series, but then expanded to 45 minutes once the CW took over, and then spent much of its first season unsure of how much drama or comedy to inject in each episode.)
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Quiara
Grade School
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Post by Quiara on Nov 23, 2021 17:32:00 GMT -8
I'm worried it's going to take a handful of obvious potshots at musical theater tropes without, like, any of the genuine emotion that comes out of a really good musical, and instead we're going to get a lot of really risque jokes that aren't really all that funny because they're too fixated on nudging you towards the form of the musical theater number rather than taking it for granted and thus allowing the real humor to happen. There's some self-knowing humor in that vein, and I did get a bit distracted by it (the scene which parodies "Trouble" stands out as particularly heavy-handed, though that may be because I'm more familiar with that song than some of the others). It's one of those shows that tries to work on two levels, being both a charming recreation of those old Hollywood musicals while also poking fun at their tropes and clichés. Some of these jokes are pat and uninspired (did you know that 1940s musicals have outdated gender roles? Ho ho), but others work by having the writers and cast fully commit to the absurdity of the premise. Certainly the show shares some tongue-in-cheek similarities with Galavant, but it benefits from the half-hour format as that show did by never having to get too serious in older to sustain a longer running time. (Recall that Crazy Ex-Girlfriend was originally pitched as a half-hour series, but then expanded to 45 minutes once the CW took over, and then spent much of its first season unsure of how much drama or comedy to inject in each episode.) OK, so I watched Schmigadoon! - love that exclamation point - and it was very charming! Even if I, like you, was distracted by how naked the pastiches were, straight-up stealing entire melodies and verses from the source material. Look, Kristen Chenowith is doing "Ya Got Trouble." Oh, Aaron Tveit is singing Carousel's "Soliloquy." Oh, now Jane Krakowski is doing... a Kiss Me Kate spoof even though her role is obviously spoofing The Sound of Music? I mean, christ on a cracker, the show is called Schmigadoon, the plagiarism is the point!! There is one very, very clever decision which is to have the end number be a sort of double-barreled pastiche of Sunday in the Park and Godspell, the two opposite poles of post-Golden Age Broadway.
But I liked it, really, even if it kind of felt like a vanity project.
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Post by Jeremy on Nov 23, 2021 21:36:16 GMT -8
I think my favorite moment in the series is Melissa reacting to the dream ballet. It's pretty much the same reaction I have anytime that sort of scene pops up in a movie.
Anyway, I figured you'd connect with (and be distracted by) some of these musical numbers more than I was, since my main points of reference were Sound of Music and Music Man. The placement of the parodies themselves doesn't appear to have a lot of rhyme or reason behind it, so I do understand why some musical buffs will be put off by some of the weird combos and amalgamations.
You can really tell that Cinco Paul and Ken Daurio put some effort into the comedy and songwriting, and I'd much rather they produce a second season of this instead of another Despicable Me film.
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Post by Incandescence 112 on Nov 24, 2021 10:57:33 GMT -8
So, I had the misfortune of watching the Cowboy Bebop Netflix series. The original is basically genius from every angle. It has complex characters, it's subtle, it has boatloads of style, and it reaps the benefits of episodic storytelling by mostly telling self-contained stories that are satisfying on their own merits, as well as the world-building and character development of serialized tv. I wasn't expecting great things from the remake. But it's still really bad-- a completely pointless endeavor that sucks out all the style and wit of the original, and replaces it with empty looking parking lots and some excruciatingly wooden dialogue.
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Quiara
Grade School
Posts: 775
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Post by Quiara on Nov 24, 2021 11:38:40 GMT -8
So, I had the misfortune of watching the Cowboy Bebop Netflix series. The original is basically genius from every angle. It has complex characters, it's subtle, it has boatloads of style, and it reaps the benefits of episodic storytelling by mostly telling self-contained stories that are satisfying on their own merits, as well as the world-building and character development of serialized tv. I wasn't expecting great things from the remake. But it's still really bad-- a completely pointless endeavor that sucks out all the style and wit of the original, and replaces it with empty looking parking lots and some excruciatingly wooden dialogue. I truly, truly, truly do not understand why the Cowboy Bebop reboot (Cowboot Reboy? Reboy Beboot?) exists - shouldn't Netflix of all people know that live-action adaptations of anime are DOA?
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Post by ThirdMan on Nov 24, 2021 13:26:26 GMT -8
I notice that the original anime Cowboy Bebop is only one season long, and is on Netflix. Maybe I'll give it a look.
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Post by Jeremy on Nov 24, 2021 15:19:29 GMT -8
I've lately been watching the Cowboy Bebop anime for the first time (currently about halfway through the series) and I agree with a lot of Flame's points. It's well-written and strikingly designed/animated, with episodes that are largely self-contained while still feeding into the show's larger universe. Some of the dialogue (English dub) feels a little forced, particularly the humor, but the characters are well-etched enough that even some of the flimsier jokes manage to stick the landing. The reaction to the live-action remake is interesting in the sense that the only critics who seem to like it (e.g. Sepinwall) are the ones who have never seen the original. Probably not a great sign! I truly, truly, truly do not understand why the Cowboy Bebop reboot (Cowboot Reboy? Reboy Beboot?) exists - shouldn't Netflix of all people know that live-action adaptations of anime are DOA? I mean, the Death Note movie was panned by critics and excoriated by fans, but it still generated a lot of buzz for a week or so. I'd wager that a lot of people watched it (even if some of them did so ironically), and I'd say the same will probably be true of the new Cowboy Bebop. Netflix knows what they're doing. Their content doesn't need to be good, so long as it's content. If it's a TV show or film that people will want to watch and thus keep their subscription going for another cycle, Netflix will greenlight it. (This is the only way to explain why they plunk down $200 million for garbage like Red Notice.)
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Post by ThirdMan on Nov 24, 2021 15:54:11 GMT -8
Watched about half of the CB pilot episode, but couldn't get into it right now. I tried the original Japanese and the English dub (I'll only indulge dubs on animation), and as is often the case, the American voice-talent often goes too over-the-top with their delivery on some characters. Regardless, I'll circle back to it later.
Might give Tick Tick...Boom! a look, as I generally enjoyed Hamilton and In the Heights. I gather Miranda didn't write this, but he did direct it, and the reviews seem good, especially for Andrew Garfield's performance. (I'd post this in the Films section, but eh, it's Netflix.)
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Post by Jay on Nov 24, 2021 16:59:22 GMT -8
Incidentally, years and years ago, I tried forcing Cowboy Bebop on Mikejer as an example of anime that was less wacky (mutual friends of ours tried to get him and a number of others to watch FLCL, which unsurprisingly went over like a lead balloon since its excellence is somewhat dependent on genre familiarity). While we did not finish the series, you would be unsurprised to learn that Mikejer could not stand Ed and I felt that same impression upon seeing a clip of Ed's arrival in the live-action. I just couldn't stomach it and it convinced me not to watch the adaptation. However, you would be surprised at what episode Mikejer seemed to like best. Guess as you will, I don't think anyone would nail it off the bat.
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Post by Jeremy on Nov 24, 2021 17:37:00 GMT -8
I've heard that Ed's appearance in the live-action Cowboy Bebop is relegated to a brief cameo. Although that clip has gained quite a bit of traction on social media, with fans relentlessly mocking it as a perfect example of When Reboots Go Wrong.
It seems like the original CB is viewed as an ideal series for anime newcomers, and I can see why. I'm personally not a fan of the exaggerated "teardrop" style that I've seen in a lot of other anime, but Bebop is refreshingly down-to-earth and easier to invest in. (By contrast, what little I've seen of FLCL was... not very down-to-earth at all.)
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Post by Incandescence 112 on Nov 24, 2021 20:56:23 GMT -8
So, I had the misfortune of watching the Cowboy Bebop Netflix series. The original is basically genius from every angle. It has complex characters, it's subtle, it has boatloads of style, and it reaps the benefits of episodic storytelling by mostly telling self-contained stories that are satisfying on their own merits, as well as the world-building and character development of serialized tv. I wasn't expecting great things from the remake. But it's still really bad-- a completely pointless endeavor that sucks out all the style and wit of the original, and replaces it with empty looking parking lots and some excruciatingly wooden dialogue. I truly, truly, truly do not understand why the Cowboy Bebop reboot (Cowboot Reboy? Reboy Beboot?) exists - shouldn't Netflix of all people know that live-action adaptations of anime are DOA? The Den of Geek review really nailed it--"turning an Eastern, animated pastiche of Western live action tropes into a Western live action show turned out not to be such a great idea".
I know in the 'dub vs sub' wars, dub fans will always hold up Bebop as an example of a great one....and I disagree. It's still stilted and awkward, and mostly far off from what it should be. I'd recommend anyone watching it for the first time to watch the subbed version, if they're fine with subs. Truth be told, the only dub I like is the one for Ghost Stories, which took a laughably awful horror melodrama and turned it into a great example of raunchy comedy done well.
JC--"Asteroid Blues" isn't the most gripping pilot ever, I don't think, but I think it's well done and is a pretty good example of what the show is. I'd stick it out to at least episode 5, "Ballad of Fallen Angels", though.
Jay--I like Ed in small doses. Then again, I have a strong tolerance level for what some call 'anime bullshit' that probably drives Mike crazy. And I'm gonna guess his favorite episode of the first half was either "Sympathy for the Devil" or "Waltz For Venus". I re-watched the show a few months back myself, and I sorely underrated those two. Or "Toys in the Attic" (how can anyone not love this one?).
I used the strategy of picking shows that played to my friends' interests. One of my friends is really into French history and literature, so I showed her The Rose of Versailles and Gankutsuou: The Count of Monte Cristo and she ended up loving both (two of my personal favorites as well). I have another one who only likes Isao Takahata's 1979 adaptation of Anne of Green Gables since it's one of her favorite childhood stories, and his version does justice to it so much better than its lackluster Canadian live action version from the 80s.
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Post by Incandescence 112 on Nov 24, 2021 21:03:35 GMT -8
I've lately been watching the Cowboy Bebop anime for the first time (currently about halfway through the series) and I agree with a lot of Flame's points. It's well-written and strikingly designed/animated, with episodes that are largely self-contained while still feeding into the show's larger universe. Some of the dialogue (English dub) feels a little forced, particularly the humor, but the characters are well-etched enough that even some of the flimsier jokes manage to stick the landing. The reaction to the live-action remake is interesting in the sense that the only critics who seem to like it (e.g. Sepinwall) are the ones who have never seen the original. Probably not a great sign! I truly, truly, truly do not understand why the Cowboy Bebop reboot (Cowboot Reboy? Reboy Beboot?) exists - shouldn't Netflix of all people know that live-action adaptations of anime are DOA? I mean, the Death Note movie was panned by critics and excoriated by fans, but it still generated a lot of buzz for a week or so. I'd wager that a lot of people watched it (even if some of them did so ironically), and I'd say the same will probably be true of the new Cowboy Bebop. Netflix knows what they're doing. Their content doesn't need to be good, so long as it's content. If it's a TV show or film that people will want to watch and thus keep their subscription going for another cycle, Netflix will greenlight it. (This is the only way to explain why they plunk down $200 million for garbage like Red Notice.) Yes, the Death Note adaptation was terrible. That being said, I'm not that big a fan of Death Note to begin with (really loses its way about 2/3 of the way through), so it didn't really bother me much. Whereas I love the original Bebop--I think its excellence still shines through over 2 decades later and it's still a great gateway to get people into the medium. Such a shame to have it adapted so shoddily. Since you mentioned the animation, yes, it looks absolutely gorgeous for 1998. And the settings and locales are so damn immersive and fascinating to look at. The remake replaces those with the Altered Carbon look. It doesn't even have a single space dogfight in it!
The biggest immediate problem with the show, though is the dialogue. It's more ear-splitting than anything I can think of in recent memory. I find it hard to believe Sepinwall thinks it's acceptable. Just compare the opening scene of the 2001 follow up film to the opening scene of the remake which explicitly apes it to see the difference.
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Post by ThirdMan on Nov 24, 2021 21:54:26 GMT -8
JC--"Asteroid Blues" isn't the most gripping pilot ever, I don't think, but I think it's well done and is a pretty good example of what the show is. I'd stick it out to at least episode 5, "Ballad of Fallen Angels", though. Oh, with most shows, it usually takes me about five episodes to fully get on their wavelength, and get drawn in by their story. That said, the space-western vibe feels like it's been done a lot in the past so many years. Regardless, I'll take your advice, and switch back to the original Japanese version when I start it up again. I've watched some Miyazaki films with English dubs that I enjoyed well enough, but with this series, it does seem like the English version would be more hit-or-miss.
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Post by Jay on Nov 25, 2021 8:18:29 GMT -8
JC--"Asteroid Blues" isn't the most gripping pilot ever, I don't think, but I think it's well done and is a pretty good example of what the show is. I'd stick it out to at least episode 5, "Ballad of Fallen Angels", though.
Jay--I like Ed in small doses. Then again, I have a strong tolerance level for what some call 'anime bullshit' that probably drives Mike crazy. And I'm gonna guess his favorite episode of the first half was either "Sympathy for the Devil" or "Waltz For Venus". I re-watched the show a few months back myself, and I sorely underrated those two. Or "Toys in the Attic" (how can anyone not love this one?). I'd second the suggestion to stick it out through "Ballad of Fallen Angels" as that provides a good sense of where the show is ultimately "going" beyond the hints and callbacks that really only emerge in a second viewing. I was okay with Ed in the series itself although definitely not my favorite character, but there was something about seeing a live action version that made me think about media genres and how Ed can be plausible in an animated world and excessive in a live-action one. I was simultaneously impressed by how much of the physical movements were brought in and choreographed and a bit repulsed by the manic energy. As for your guesses, they're all good ones! I think that those were all among the first episodes I saw, out of order as my viewing was. However, none of them were Mike's favorite. I should also clarify that the more obvious choices, "Jupiter Jazz, Pt. 1 and 2," he did really enjoy and said that it got him to forget that he was watching an animated story for a bit, which is really quite high praise coming from him.
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Post by Jeremy on Nov 25, 2021 20:28:21 GMT -8
I'm fine sticking with the English dub, despite my quibbles, as I don't find animated dubs distracting the way live-action dubs are, and it's easier to emotionally engage with shows in a language I understand. (This is me being candid, but I maintain that there is a subtle difference in emotional connection when a show or film requires you to simultaneously be watching the characters' faces and the subtitles at the bottom of the screen.)
I just watched "Toys in the Attic" and liked it a lot. Perhaps because I'm always a fan of bottle episodes, and that episode made good use of the claustrophobic nature of the main ship. And there was a weird streak in the story that appealed to me as well.
I'll stick around for the rest of the series, although I don't know if it will wind up turning me into an anime buff. (Although I did recently watch and enjoy the first season of Hit-Monkey, which is an animated series set in Japan. I mean, it's an American-produced show from Marvel, but it seems to display... a bit of anime influence? I dunno, I think it kinda sorta counts.)
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