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Post by ThirdMan on Nov 28, 2021 15:55:11 GMT -8
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Post by Incandescence 112 on Nov 28, 2021 20:11:30 GMT -8
I don't think I've regularly watched any 22-episode-per-season dramas in several years. Seems like the practice has been fading out, even on broadcast networks. (Interesting tidbit - due to Covid, most of the network shows in the 2020-21 season produced 18 episodes or less.) Yeah, The Good Wife and PoI were probably the two last genuinely great network dramas anyway. But the other side of the coin is that, since American tv has gone downhill in the latter half of the 2010s, you have plenty of time to catch up on whatever pop culture you missed, length aside. I'm mostly watching anime and classic Hollywood stuff, and having a great time. Still have to watch The Knick, though.
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Post by Jeremy on Nov 28, 2021 20:50:58 GMT -8
Thanks for the Chaplin/Keaton links, guys. I will definitely give some of them a look.
J.C., I actually have Metropolis sitting on my DVR, but haven't gotten around to watching it yet. Maybe I'll use that YouTube link, since I'm not sure if TCM broadcast the full version. (They're usually quite good with preserving old films, but as with some instances - i.e. The Third Man - I've found that they don't always have the freshest prints.)
I definitely want to catch up on more classic Hollywood (still have a lot of widely-praised films on the bucket list), but for the next few weeks, I also want to focus on my end-of-year writings. I've got three Top 10 articles to post in December (Worst Films, Best Films, and Best TV Shows of 2021), plus maybe an extra piece or two if I have the time. But I should be able to make time for a few of the oldies as well.
(Also, Flame/Incandescence, I think you're the first person to take advantage of the forum's name-change feature. Only took five years for someone to give it a go.)
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Post by ThirdMan on Nov 28, 2021 21:19:52 GMT -8
J.C., I actually have Metropolis sitting on my DVR, but haven't gotten around to watching it yet. Maybe I'll use that YouTube link, since I'm not sure if TCM broadcast the full version. (They're usually quite good with preserving old films, but as with some instances - i.e. The Third Man - I've found that they don't always have the freshest prints.) (Also, Flame/Incandescence, I think you're the first person to take advantage of the forum's name-change feature. Only took five years for someone to give it a go.) I think the last time I saw TCM broadcast Metropolis, it was the extended version. Keep in mind, of course, that the originally restored print looked pretty great, but that the footage recovered in 2008 is much more worn/damaged. The difference is instantly apparent. Oh, and I'd might as well take advantage of the name-change feature as well. And no, it's not in specific reference to the Carol Reed film, but rather indirectly, via one of my favourite musicians' record label. I've used it elsewhere for years, so I'd might as well be consistent across the tubes of the intraweb.
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Post by Jay on Nov 29, 2021 14:02:55 GMT -8
I think Bosc came over as Bosc before changing over to Quiara.
Also while Jer comments on the name change, I will instead give a thumbs up to the profile picture switch to Ginko from Mushi-shi, one of my favorite monster-of-the-week series of any genre.
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Post by Incandescence 112 on Nov 29, 2021 16:53:29 GMT -8
Thanks for the Chaplin/Keaton links, guys. I will definitely give some of them a look. J.C., I actually have Metropolis sitting on my DVR, but haven't gotten around to watching it yet. Maybe I'll use that YouTube link, since I'm not sure if TCM broadcast the full version. (They're usually quite good with preserving old films, but as with some instances - i.e. The Third Man - I've found that they don't always have the freshest prints.) I definitely want to catch up on more classic Hollywood (still have a lot of widely-praised films on the bucket list), but for the next few weeks, I also want to focus on my end-of-year writings. I've got three Top 10 articles to post in December (Worst Films, Best Films, and Best TV Shows of 2021), plus maybe an extra piece or two if I have the time. But I should be able to make time for a few of the oldies as well. (Also, Flame/Incandescence, I think you're the first person to take advantage of the forum's name-change feature. Only took five years for someone to give it a go.) I kept it similar enough so no one would be confused, but just picked a slightly more irritating-to-type out synonym for fire.
Certain aspects of the era Classic Hollywood era appeal to me very much (the noirs!). Others haven't aged so well for sure--I'm just not that interested in the current state of things. Wake me up when we get back to 2015-levels of great tv.
Actually, might be being a bit unfair to films, actually. The year did pick up majorly in the second half. I was more impressed by Dune than I thought. And I haven't even seen PTA's new outing, which sounds more Punch Drunk Love than Inherent Vice or Phantom Thread. Which is good. But man, tv is just in the pits. The best show is basically a slightly more dramatic take on Veep. It's up to Donald Glover to save it next year.
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Post by Jeremy on Nov 29, 2021 20:45:00 GMT -8
Well, all the new names could fool people into thinking we have new members, which could help with web traffic. So that's a plus.
Flame/Incandescence, I think you're being a bit harsh on current TV. Sure, the Golden Age wave crested a few years ago, but there is still a fair number of clever and innovative shows airing these days (particularly the half-hour variety). Heck, I'm not even sure I'd call Impeachment one of the very best shows of the year - it might make my Top 10, but there are a number of other cable/streaming shows that are superior.
The main problem with TV in 2021, as I see it, is that most of the best shows don't get any attention. There are over 400 scripted programs airing this year, yet The Discourse has mostly been reserved for a small handful - the MCU shows, Ted Lasso, Mare of Easttown, and Squid Game. Nothing against those shows specifically, but it's hard to convince people that there's great stuff on TV when most people are just talking about a handful of it.
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Post by ThirdMan on Nov 29, 2021 23:33:26 GMT -8
I haven't really given that much thought to the last five years of TV vs. the previous five years, but I usually see more than a handful of shows being talked about at any given time that seem fairly interesting (more on streaming as of late, though, than on cable and especially network TV). This past year, though, part of it's down to production being pushed back by the pandemic. Aa there seem to be more quality movies coming out in the past few months than most of the previous year, I think we'll start to see the same for TV (at least as it relates to finally-returning "prestige" dramas and comedies).
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Quiara
Grade School
Posts: 775
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Post by Quiara on Dec 11, 2021 11:04:32 GMT -8
OK, here's a show I've heard nothing about on the internet: Brand New Cherry Flavor, starring Rosa Salazar as a would-be auteur who turns to witchcraft to wrestle back creative control of her art from a vaguely Weinsteinoid sleazebag. (Also, Manny Jacinto is there playing a character with a functional brain.) Halfway through the show, I'm quite enjoying it, but after the credits roll all I can think is, "wow, guttersnipe would *love* this." Because I've seen the show described as a horror-drama but really Brand New Cherry Flavor is a giallo. A slightly meta, slightly #MeToo giallo, but it's not self-consciously pastiche. Also, Rosa "Anime Eyes" Salazar is *really* good at being the lead of a giallo.
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Post by Jay on Dec 13, 2021 10:26:09 GMT -8
Cowbeep Bopboy has been cancelled... Apparently the enthusiasm for the show really trailed off after the first few weeks, which is probably the opposite of Netflix's desired viral outcome. One could lament that they screwed up yet another live-action anime adaptation, but they also remain decent patrons when it comes to anime itself, so I feel I can't complain too much. I can poke the hornet's nest though! Wheeeeee (jab jab jab) So a Vice article came out shortly after release (pre-cancellation!) about "Why Does Everyone in Netflix's Cowboy Bebop Talk Like That?", attributing it to the insidious spread of Whedonspeak! And I'm asking all you hornets what you think about that? Personally, I can enjoy it in a setting like Buffy where it's an exaggerated pastiche of school and horror monsters, and it's fine in comics movies because those also have an inherent ridiculousness to them. But there were nevertheless times in which it chafed me watching certain episodes and I felt, as the author of article suggests, that the gestures were less about illuminating the characters and more about showcasing how clever the writers were. Indeed, in a large group of people, rarely are they all that clever all the time. This is not to say either that Whedon is the arch-practitioner of it as I've seen it bleed into webcomics and other television series where the creators suddenly become too visible, and it ceases to be about characters they're working with but mirror fragments of themselves wanting recognition.
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Post by Incandescence 112 on Dec 13, 2021 10:46:27 GMT -8
Cowbeep Bopboy has been cancelled... Apparently the enthusiasm for the show really trailed off after the first few weeks, which is probably the opposite of Netflix's desired viral outcome. One could lament that they screwed up yet another live-action anime adaptation, but they also remain decent patrons when it comes to anime itself, so I feel I can't complain too much. I can poke the hornet's nest though! Wheeeeee (jab jab jab) So a Vice article came out shortly after release (pre-cancellation!) about "Why Does Everyone in Netflix's Cowboy Bebop Talk Like That?", attributing it to the insidious spread of Whedonspeak! And I'm asking all you hornets what you think about that? Personally, I can enjoy it in a setting like Buffy where it's an exaggerated pastiche of school and horror monsters, and it's fine in comics movies because those also have an inherent ridiculousness to them. But there were nevertheless times in which it chafed me watching certain episodes and I felt, as the author of article suggests, that the gestures were less about illuminating the characters and more about showcasing how clever the writers were. Indeed, in a large group of people, rarely are they all that clever all the time. This is not to say either that Whedon is the arch-practitioner of it as I've seen it bleed into webcomics and other television series where the creators suddenly become too visible, and it ceases to be about characters they're working with but mirror fragments of themselves wanting recognition. And the show's original screenwriter, Keiko Nobumuto, recently died of esophageal cancer at the age of 57. RIP.
Ian (Passion of the Nerd) mentioned it a few years ago in his analysis of The Zeppo. How many teenagers are aware of Zeppo Marx and would use it as an insult? Not many, I'd guess. So there are times even in Buffy where the quips push the limits of credibility. I suppose the difference lies for me is that Buffy was significantly funnier than its imitators. Becoming Part 2 is Exhibit A for how to perfectly balance humor and tragedy, whereas elsewhere the humor just destroys the dramatic tension and robs the characters of authenticity.
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Post by guttersnipe on Dec 13, 2021 11:59:29 GMT -8
Halfway through the show, I'm quite enjoying it, but after the credits roll all I can think is, "wow, guttersnipe would *love* this." You know, they say the human eye is more drawn to imagery than the written word, and I took one look at this page and went, "Whoa, what is that??" I think I have some free daytimes this week, so I may well check this out. And the show's original screenwriter, Keiko Nobumuto, recently died of esophageal cancer at the age of 57. RIP. Was it the news of the remake? Because in the interests of levity, that reminds me of a George Carlin bit: "This conversation is bound to turn up. Two guys in a street meet each other, and one of them says, "Hey, did you hear? Phil Davis died." "Phil Davis? I just saw him yesterday." "Yeah...? Didn't help. He died anyway. Apparently, the simple act of you seeing him did not slow his cancer down. In fact, it may have made it more aggressive. You know, you could be the cause for Phil's death. How do you live with yourself?""
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Post by ThirdMan on Dec 13, 2021 14:28:09 GMT -8
Ian (Passion of the Nerd) mentioned it a few years ago in his analysis of The Zeppo. How many teenagers are aware of Zeppo Marx and would use it as an insult?
In this particular case, it was certainly a stretch giving that reference to Cordelia, of all people. That said, the series had shown Buffy watching old movies on the couch with her mother in the past, so had the line come from her, it probably would've stuck out less. Regardless, I love that episode's dialogue. One of my favourite exchanges in the history of the show was: Xander: "Who, at a crucial moment, distracted the lead demon by allowing her to pummel him about the head?" Faith: "Yeah, that was real manly how you shrieked and all."Xander: "I think you'll find that was more of a bellow."I do think the exaggerated supernatural setting allows the show a lot more leeway with regards to how overly-clever the dialogue can be, in the same way that the exaggerated art direction of a Tim Burton Batman film causes viewers to not nitpick plot-holes in the same way they would a more "photo-realistic" Nolan Batman film. And I'll always take a show that's perhaps a bit too clever over one that has boring, perfunctory dialogue that only works on a surface-level pushing the plot along. And BtVS had plenty of more low-key, nuanced (and subtext-rich) dialogue as well, to balance things out.
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Quiara
Grade School
Posts: 775
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Post by Quiara on Dec 13, 2021 16:26:39 GMT -8
Cowbeep Bopboy has been cancelled... Apparently the enthusiasm for the show really trailed off after the first few weeks, which is probably the opposite of Netflix's desired viral outcome. One could lament that they screwed up yet another live-action anime adaptation, but they also remain decent patrons when it comes to anime itself, so I feel I can't complain too much. I can poke the hornet's nest though! Wheeeeee (jab jab jab) So a Vice article came out shortly after release (pre-cancellation!) about "Why Does Everyone in Netflix's Cowboy Bebop Talk Like That?", attributing it to the insidious spread of Whedonspeak! And I'm asking all you hornets what you think about that? Personally, I can enjoy it in a setting like Buffy where it's an exaggerated pastiche of school and horror monsters, and it's fine in comics movies because those also have an inherent ridiculousness to them. But there were nevertheless times in which it chafed me watching certain episodes and I felt, as the author of article suggests, that the gestures were less about illuminating the characters and more about showcasing how clever the writers were. Indeed, in a large group of people, rarely are they all that clever all the time. This is not to say either that Whedon is the arch-practitioner of it as I've seen it bleed into webcomics and other television series where the creators suddenly become too visible, and it ceases to be about characters they're working with but mirror fragments of themselves wanting recognition. I read this article a week ago and its assertion that "Whedonspeak" is aural "cotton candy" has really really rankled me, largely because it strikes me as sexist in a way I can't quite place. Or um, I can kind of triangulate from "many women are into X" and "X is a frivolous vanity exercise" towards "this is bad because women are into it," even if that's not exactly a perfect syllogism, because it has the same character of a lot of vaguely sexist criticisms of BTVS.
But I guess this pisses me off because it's one of the purest iterations of the bad criticism of the sort you find I've come to associate mostly with music criticism but is also a big thing in cinema and TV, where surface-level elements of the work are often overemphasized relative to the actual things that make a work of art good or bad. I can neither confirm nor deny whether the cast of Cowboot Reboy speak exclusively in Whedonisms... but truthfully, is that really why the show sucks? Or are its failings more structural? I would wager that Cowbell Boopdoop - a project that seemed kind of misbegotten from the start - is bad independent of whether the dialogue is good or bad. It's sort of like the school of criticism you see in Pitchfork which is completely fixated on lyrics and doesn't describe the underlying musical content of a track, because that is harder to dig into or discuss than just quoting a song verbatim.
This is why I don't really jibe with the criticism that Joss Whedon - or Aaron Sorkin or Sherman-Palladino or Shonda Rhimes - writes characters who all "sound the same," because that's not really a criticism so much as a factual statement about basically any writer with a distinctive style of dialogue, and that's not really the reason why their respective oeuvres are good or bad. The Sorkin of The Newsroom and the Sorkin of The Social Network are writing almost identical dialogue; it's the underlying structure and craft and character and theme that makes one of those among the best films of the 21st century and the other a punching bag. These writers are at their best when they have a solid base to do their thing on, either because they're secretly quite good at character motivation and dramatic beats like Whedon used to be, or because you have a David Fincher to cattle prod you into shape. But if the underlying skeleton isn't there, then all that clever dialogue isn't helping. Whedonspeak isn't cotton candy, it's a very pungent seasoning; Buffy is a steak and the MCU is a defrosted Big Mac. I rag on The Avengers a lot but the dialogue in the film is genuinely quite good; the issue with the film is that the good dialogue is plastered on top of a fundamentally stupid blockbuster.
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Post by Jeremy on Dec 14, 2021 10:27:10 GMT -8
I agree with a lot of Quiara's points (except for the parts about the MCU) and I would go a step further in saying that the live-action Cowboy Bebop is at an even greater disadvantage than the average show that employs quippy-clever dialogue, because it is a remake built around established characters who already have specific voices and styles that fans are used to. The live-action Bebop doesn't sound natural in part because we have a natural idea of what the Bebop crew sounds like, and this ain't it. That's not to say the dialogue in the Netflix show would otherwise be good, because there is no universe in which the line "You'll never know true power until you've tasted the testicles of a man who has wronged you" can ever be considered good dialogue. I'm just saying, the deck was stacked against this show from the start.
As for Whedonspeak in general, I think it's all about context, including in the original Whedon shows. "The Zeppo" is a great example of this, in the sense that it features a lot of generally well-written lines that I simply don't find funny because the surrounding episode strikes me as so manufactured and hollow. Similarly, the most engrossing Buffy episodes tend to be the ones with the most memorable dialogue, both because the dialogue lends itself to the quality of the story and because you're more likely to remember conversations from a story that leaves an impact.
(Speaking of one-season Netflix dramas, Teenage Bounty Hunters is another show filled with quippy dialogue, but thanks to the show's quirky premise and light tone, the conversations feel natural and are often pretty funny, which excuses some of the weaker and more obvious jokes. In case anyone's wondering, I am still bummed about that show being cancelled.)
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