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Post by otherscott on Nov 22, 2018 10:28:48 GMT -8
This is kind of a concept that's been picking up steam for the past year or so. There are so many original scripted series on streaming networks. In the article I'm about to link, Sepinwall has the number at over 150. Compared to say FX or HBO, that is a ton. Yet the ceiling on these shows just doesn't seem to be that high. We talk about Peak TV and how much new shows that are being produced, but also how the quality at the very top isn't quite what it was 10 years ago. I think streaming services are a big reason for that, they simply aren't producing that many great shows. Alan Sepinwall ranks his top 20 here, and really says there's only one pantheon show in these last 5 years of streaming TV, Bojack. www.rollingstone.com/tv/tv-features/20-best-streaming-original-shows-so-far-757702/
I realize I'm not QUITE as big a Bojack fan as some here on the forums, but I would agree it's currently the top spot if we take both peak and consistency. But even that show missed my top 10 last and is going to be borderline again this year. Every year since streaming TV became a thing, the consensus best show on TV has yet to air on one of them, despite having much more shows and resources. You can make a case for The Handmaid's Tale last year, but I think people were more taken by the "timeliness" then thinking it was actually better than The Leftovers. Orange is the New Black in its good years was generally overshadowed by Fargo, Master of None by Atlanta. Why isn't the quality of streaming originals better? Why are the vast majority of the best shows on TV still on HBO and FX? Thoughts?
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Post by Jeremy on Nov 22, 2018 11:25:07 GMT -8
I'm going to skip past my usual "streaming bloat" gripes, and instead focus on some more widespread economical issues in the streaming world. The Wall Street Journal had a piece earlier this year about why HBO shows are still garnering more attention than Netflix dramas. The underlying point (for those of you without a WSJ subscription) is that HBO is throwing fewer darts, but they're hitting more valuable targets. Netflix has adopted a "more is more" strategy, wherein they just upload as many shows over as wide a variety of genres as they can afford, and then see what does and doesn't stick. They can do this because they aren't restricted to confining TV schedules - they can upload as many shows as they want each week. HBO can't be as choosy - they only have a handful of hours each week, and so they're a lot more selective about their content. And because their schedule is less crowded, their shows stand out more among those familiar with their brand. On the other hand, Netflix shows keep getting in each other's way - how many subscribers are familiar with Love or The OA? (Netflix shows also keep competing against each other at the Emmys, which may explain why none of them have won a Best Series award yet.) In short, HBO and FX are mainly concerned with producing great TV. Netflix is concerned with making great amounts of TV. And when you spread the net wide enough, odds are that a few of those shows will be critically acclaimed, but that's not the chief focus of their algorithm. The other issue is that Netflix seasons are basically over before they start. They drop a series on a Friday, and most folks finish it within a week. It's out of the public eye within two weeks. That's not the sort of power that sticks you in the cultural conversation. (Hulu takes the weekly route, and it's to their benefit - for all the supposed timeliness of The Handmaid's Tale, I doubt it would have the same long-term effect if all the episodes were dropped in one go.) Also, Amazon shows bring down the overall quality of the "streaming TV" medium, because the Amazon folks have no clue what they're doing.
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Post by otherscott on Nov 22, 2018 12:45:35 GMT -8
I also didn't want to cover "streaming bloat" because it's a pretty Netflix specific problem as far as I can tell, and specifically the dramas.
The one thing I wonder about though is that you'd think the throwing dart method that the streaming networks and Netflix in particular employ would give you a lower ratio but overall they'd hit some great shows as well. Like for instance if HBO had the flexibility to throw more darts, presumably they wouldn't have passed on Mad Men.
There may be something to the speed of consumption argument - at one point I was arguing that the second season in particular of Orange is the New Black should have been getting a lot more accolades than it was actually receiving. Maybe the reason it didn't is because the whole thing was digested so quickly. This same issue could be affecting Master of None's critical response as well. That being said, Stranger Things didn't have that issue at all and Bojack doesn't really either.
It does feel a bit unfair to throw Hulu in when it doesn't have nearly the output Netflix or even Amazon do, but that being said they have one standout in Handmaid's Tale, a couple strong performers critically in Casual and Castle Rock, and then a lot of chaff.
I can't comment on Amazon's programming, as I don't believe I have seen a single second of any Amazon original. That will change soon as I've got Maisel, The Romanoffs and Homecoming on my list for next month.
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Post by Jeremy on Nov 22, 2018 15:13:44 GMT -8
Another thing to consider is that streaming shows are still a relatively recent invention, so most of them don't have the capacity to enter the "Best Ever" conversation yet. Of the 20 shows on Alan's list, only 5 of them have aired more than two seasons. I could see Master of None becoming an all-time great if Ansari chooses to make future seasons, but I wouldn't say it's earned the title just yet.
I do think the streaming bloat is an issue, since many Netflix dramas (particularly the Marvel ones) would be improved by having more clearly defined individual episodes. The Crown - while far from a perfect show - is one of Netflix's better dramas in part because each episode works as its own story. (The bloat also does extend to Amazon dramas like The Man in the High Castle, although at least Amazon caps its seasons at 8-10 episodes, instead of 13.)
Hulu shows, outside of Runaways, haven't engaged me that much - I tired of The Handmaid's Tale in S2, and never cared for Casual (it's basically Six Feet Under without the funeral home). But overall, I think their weekly format is more compatible with great dramas than the "drop 'em all at once" model.
Also, I think Amazon might finally be turning a corner? Mrs. Maisel was their first show that was both high-quality and entertaining to watch. I've heard good things about Homecoming as well, so I may check it out. And hopefully The Romanoffs isn't as bad as word-of-mouth indicates.
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Post by Zarnium on Nov 22, 2018 19:02:03 GMT -8
To add more complexity to the conversation, I'm not sure where anime fits into this. Most American viewers watch it on one of the streaming services now, either a standard one or a specialized anime-only one from an American distributor, but I think most Japanese shows are still intended for some sort of traditional broadcast in Japan. So it's sort of a grey area, where it's still "traditional" TV, but streaming has made international distribution much easier than before.
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Post by ThirdMan on Nov 22, 2018 22:12:37 GMT -8
Uh, what are the "great" HBO shows these days? I mean, The Leftovers got mixed reviews for at least one-third of its run (and regardless, it's over) Game of Thrones frequently gets shit on by non-genre enthusiasts, Westworld ain't very highly regarded. Maybe I'm forgetting something, but I'd say Netflix is in at least as good shape as HBO these days. Heck, HBO's been pretty middling for over a decade now.
(ETA: Come to think of it, I suppose The Deuce is quite well-regarded.)
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Post by Jeremy on Nov 23, 2018 6:08:14 GMT -8
There's also Big Little Lies, Veep, Insecure, Silicon Valley, and Barry. And though not originally produced for HBO, My Brilliant Friend is one of the most acclaimed shows of 2018.
I'm not saying all or any of these shows are necessarily in the "Best Ever" conversation - most of them are still too young to qualify - but they demonstrate that, given its comparatively limited programming range, HBO is doing quite well, and has recovered from their late 2000s slump.
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Post by otherscott on Nov 23, 2018 7:59:49 GMT -8
I believe My Brilliant Friend is an HBO co-production, despite being completely in Italian. In other words there was probably a fair amount of HBO money going into making it happen. Or maybe not a fair amount of HBO money but the HBO name, who knows.
That's kind of where this idea originated from, watching the first couple episodes and wondering why HBO could co-produce a show that good seemingly in their sleep where the streaming networks have all their biggest, most advertised stuff top out as "good." That combined with seeing Sepinwall's article and trying to come up with my own top 5 for streaming shows and being pretty underwhelmed.
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Quiara
Grade School
Posts: 775
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Post by Quiara on Nov 23, 2018 11:30:30 GMT -8
Because they're not TV shows, they're webseries! Ok, got that out of my system. Every year since streaming TV became a thing, the consensus best show on TV has yet to air on one of them, despite having much more shows and resources. You can make a case for The Handmaid's Tale last year, but I think people were more taken by the "timeliness" then thinking it was actually better than The Leftovers. Orange is the New Black in its good years was generally overshadowed by Fargo, Master of None by Atlanta. Why isn't the quality of streaming originals better? Why are the vast majority of the best shows on TV still on HBO and FX? Thoughts? I think it's pretty obvious why streaming shows miss the "pantheon" when we consider the three points I raised as to why Buffy is excluded from the pantheon in the Greatest Critically Touched Thread Of All Time. As a recap: Buffy was fantastic (read: not particularly interested in realism), Buffy was comedic (read: not particularly interested in being DARK SERIOUS DRAMA), and Buffy was girly (read: not particularly interested in sad self-destructive middle-aged men). I made that first post four years ago, when streaming dramas were in their infancy, and so several commenters pointed out that the critical reception of Orange is the New Black seemed to be bucking the trend. Bojack Horseman is really the only show on Sepinwall's list that's telling the middle-aged white guy destroyed by hubris story that's the template for Great TV Drama - noncoincidentally he has it as #1 and the only "all-time great." (But remember - Sepinwall and Seitz put The Simpsons as the greatest TV show of all time [an outlier opinion, for sure - no one, even Jer and me, brought it up as a BSE candidate], so Bojack being an animated comedy is a non-issue for them.)
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Post by Jeremy on Nov 23, 2018 11:33:41 GMT -8
Oh, The Simpsons is still my personal pick for "Best Show Ever." Been that way since I first joined CT. I don't talk about it as much as some other shows because it's a different type of show, but it's still #1 in my ranking. That's kind of where this idea originated from, watching the first couple episodes and wondering why HBO could co-produce a show that good seemingly in their sleep where the streaming networks have all their biggest, most advertised stuff top out as "good." That combined with seeing Sepinwall's article and trying to come up with my own top 5 for streaming shows and being pretty underwhelmed. It's tricky, but not impossible. My Top 10 streaming shows (for the moment; this will likely be different in a few months) would be: 1. Bojack Horseman2 . Master of None3 . American Vandal4 . One Day at a Time5 . Orange is the New Black6 . The Marvelous Mrs. Maisel7 . Jessica Jones
8. A Series of Unfortunate Events9. One Mississippi10. The CrownNone of these, with the exception of Bojack and maybe Master of None, are in the "truly great" category. But then again, none of them even existed six years ago, so I don't necessarily expect them to be.
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Quiara
Grade School
Posts: 775
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Post by Quiara on Nov 23, 2018 11:55:18 GMT -8
There's also Big Little Lies, Veep, Insecure, Silicon Valley, and Barry. And though not originally produced for HBO, My Brilliant Friend is one of the most acclaimed shows of 2018. I'm not saying all or any of these shows are necessarily in the "Best Ever" conversation[...] ...because 80% of them are comedies. On your personal streaming service top ten, you have six comedies, then a genre show, then a show based on a series of children's books, then another comedy, then a stuffy award-bait period drama. That's not "pantheon" material as usually conceived.
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Post by Jeremy on Nov 23, 2018 12:12:05 GMT -8
I think the definition of what would or wouldn't constitute a "pantheon" show is changing. During the 2000s, the discussion mostly centered around shows with white male antiheroes. But in the 2010s, plenty of the darkest, most emotional, or most innovative shows have been half-hour comedies (or theoretical comedies, anyway).
Sure, most of the shows I listed could be described as comedies. But the comedy of One Day at a Time is vastly different than the comedy of Orange is the New Black or One Mississippi. Plenty of non-streaming comedies, like Atlanta or Better Things, have also shifted the definition of "prestige TV," as some of the most critically acclaimed shows in years.
The old Sopranos/Breaking Bad model isn't as popular it used to be - great TV is manifesting in new ways. And the standards of "Best Ever" are manifesting with it.
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Post by otherscott on Nov 23, 2018 13:05:36 GMT -8
...because 80% of them are comedies. On your personal streaming service top ten, you have six comedies, then a genre show, then a show based on a series of children's books, then another comedy, then a stuffy award-bait period drama. That's not "pantheon" material as usually conceived. It's not because Netflix,etc aren't making the typical white male anti-hero prestige fare, though. They just suck at it. They've tried Ozark, Bloodline, Narcos, I KNOW there's an Amazon series or two that falls into that category. And realistically I think people are tired of that general genre. I don't think there's been a truly critically acclaimed show in that mold since Mad Men ended. Even Bojack, which you claim has enough similarities thematically to these shows that it can generally be put in that category is still an animated comedy about a talking horse with a bunch of corny animal jokes. Anyways, my personal top 10 unless I'm forgetting something important - no Amazon shows as of yet as I noted earlier. Some of these are only one season, and one example I'm not even quite finished that season yet: 1. Bojack Horseman 2. A Handmaid's Tale 3. Master of None 4. Orange is the New Black (heavily docked for falling off a cliff) 5. One Day at a Time 6. Haunting of Hill House 7. American Vandal (Feels low, maybe that unnecessary second season is sticking in my craw more than I thought) 8. Mindhunter 9. Sense8 10. Stranger Things I would say 4-7 or so is just as strong as a yearly top 10 list, but weaker at the top and the bottom.
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Post by Jeremy on Nov 23, 2018 13:13:31 GMT -8
Ironically, I think "white male antihero drama" is one of the few genres that Amazon does better than Netflix. (Sneaky Pete and Patriot are two of their most popular shows.)
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Post by otherscott on Nov 23, 2018 13:26:17 GMT -8
To add more complexity to the conversation, I'm not sure where anime fits into this. Most American viewers watch it on one of the streaming services now, either a standard one or a specialized anime-only one from an American distributor, but I think most Japanese shows are still intended for some sort of traditional broadcast in Japan. So it's sort of a grey area, where it's still "traditional" TV, but streaming has made international distribution much easier than before. Yeah I think that's a different discussion entirely, Zarnium. It's a question of "is Netflix, etc putting money into something and thus taking partial responsibility for its creation, or just rebroadcasting?" Streaming networks don't get any credit for rebroadcasting things that are already well received.
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