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Post by ThirdMan on Sept 17, 2022 19:44:40 GMT -8
I think the biggest problems, for me, with Season 1 of Mad Men are: 1) The first four episodes devote too much time to Betty (played by January Jones, arguably the weakest regular adult actor on the series, especially in the early going), and 2) the makeup/prosthetics they applied to Elizabeth Moss, which were meant (in retrospect) to reflect her putting on weight on account of a hidden pregnancy, but just looked really bizarre. Regarding my first point, I anecdotally know that Jones' work has scared off some potential new viewers. Anyways, I haven't watched the series recently enough to be sure about this, but at the time, I thought Season 4 was its strongest year. It's a strong series overall, and in the middle of its run, I think I preferred it to The Sopranos, the prestige series it often resembled in terms of pacing and tone.
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Post by Incandescence 112 on Sept 22, 2022 15:58:12 GMT -8
I've been watching all the Marvel shows this year and thus far, not a single one of them is getting close to my Top 10. There's only one superhero show at this point in 2022 that I'd comfortably call one of the year's best shows, and it ain't from Marvel. As for Deep Space Nine vs. Strange New Worlds, I'd say it's fair to hold SNW to a slightly higher standard due to the changing face of television - DS9 wasn't very good when it premiered, but TV in 1993 was a lot more restrictive in storytelling than TV in 2022, so the way DS9 built up a sprawling mythology over seven seasons, fighting studio pressures at every turn, is pretty impressive. I haven't seen a lot of SNW yet, but it seems fine? Not bad or anything, but not really what strikes me as groundbreaking drama in the current era. (I'm pretty lukewarm on the new Trek shows overall, although Lower Decks has shaken off its early growing pains and has become pretty funny.) There are also many reasons why the first season of DS9 turned out the way it did: being caught between its own identity and being a TNG clone, not having Ron Moore and Rene Echevarria on the writing staff yet, having to crank out 20 episodes in short order, etc. I think modern Trek has far fewer excuses. Over 5 years in, and not one episode as good as Duet, Necessary Evil, or The Wire.
Agreed, JC, that the pregnancy twist was a shocking one, but also fairly nonsensical. It is hard to believe that Peggy wouldn't even guess that she was pregnant for 9 months. Morning sickness? Other than that, I think Mad Men does what it does very well, and there hasn't really been another show out there that's mimicked its slice-of-life, Great American Novel approach. I probably prefer watching The Shield and Halt and Catch Fire, among others (honestly not sure if I prefer it to Breaking Bad or not, they're both pretty great), but they still don't really offer what Mad Men does, so I find the argument in favor of Mad Men's all-time status a strong one. Season 2 is my favorite, but I do struggle to articulate why that is. The show's rhythms just seemed to click for me on every level that year.
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Post by Incandescence 112 on Sept 22, 2022 16:08:40 GMT -8
I am on the Mad Men train, full steam ahead. Also, "The Wheel" is better than "The Suitcase", and it's not even close. Interesting take on Strange New Worlds. For me, it's fine, but it's a reversion to the Voyager model of trying to wring every last drop out of the TNG formula. Which is fine, of course, but I can't help but want more. I want the true successor to Deep Space Nine. Which remains the pinnacle of Trek.
I agree that I'm not the biggest fan of Better Call Saul out there, and much like The Americans, I feel that it had a tendency to spin its wheels for no real reason, and the Mike/Gus stuff never quite added up due to the lack of tension. However, I feel like both of those flaws were remedied as time went on. Seasons 3 and 6 were really strong, and 4 and 5 have a lot of really good stuff in there as well. I'm skeptical of whether Succession really is a deep show about abuse, or simply a raunchy comedy like Veep that mainly consists of creative insults. I suppose I'll have to watch for myself.
I don't think saying "it's not close" is fair, they're both top 5 episodes of the series. I think that Mad Men is a bit like Lost in that Season 1 feels so different from the rest of the series, and isn't really about what the rest of the series is about, but it's such a well constructed series of episodes that it may be the best season of the series despite the fact it doesn't carry the same thematic strengths as the later seasons. And part of that construction is how well the finale wraps up that mystery of who Don Draper is and what he is about. My personal favourite episode of the series is "In Care Of" and I actually think "Nixon vs Kennedy" is just as good as "The Wheel." Well, you tempted me.
1. "The Wheel" (1x13)
2. "Shut the Door. Have a Seat." (3x13)
3. "The Suitcase" (4x07)
4. "In Care Of" (6x13)
5. "Meditations in an Emergency" (2x13)
6. "Far Away Places" (5x06)
7. "The Other Woman" (5x11) 8. "The Milk and Honey Route" (7x13) 9. "Nixon vs Kennedy" (1x12) 10. "Three Sundays" (2x04) 11. "The Gypsy and the Hobo" (3x11) 12. "The Strategy" (7x06)
13. "Person to Person" (7x14) 14. "The Gold Violin" (2x07) 15. "Seven Twenty Three" (3x07) 16. "Red in the Face" (1x07) 17. "Smoke Gets In Your Eyes" (1x01) 18. "The Quality of Mercy" (6x12) 19. "Signal 30" (5x05) 20. "Shoot" (1x09)
Man, I couldn't find a place for "Favors", "A Little Kiss", "The Hobo Code", "New Amsterdam", "A Night to Remember", "Lost Horizon", and more. Yes, I think I underrated this show just a bit.
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Post by Jeremy on Sept 22, 2022 20:36:07 GMT -8
I like a lot of Mad Men, particularly those early seasons. And I still kind of hate "The Other Woman," even after everyone has told me how wrong I am. There are also many reasons why the first season of DS9 turned out the way it did: being caught between its own identity and being a TNG clone, not having Ron Moore and Rene Echevarria on the writing staff yet, having to crank out 20 episodes in short order, etc. I think modern Trek has far fewer excuses. Over 5 years in, and not one episode as good as Duet, Necessary Evil, or The Wire. Yeah, DS9 relied a bit too much on TNG structure and cameos in the early going (presumably some of this was mandated by Paramount). Despite a handful of good episodes, I do think it is a generally mediocre season of TV, even for its time. (Reminder that the 1992-93 TV season had a lot of gems - Simpsons and Seinfeld hitting their peaks, Cheers ending on a high note, great debut years for Homicide, Batman: The Animated Series, and Larry Sanders.) Might run through the rest of Strange New Worlds at some point soon, though I fear my overall feelings to Trek have cooled in recent years.
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Post by otherscott on Sept 23, 2022 7:14:27 GMT -8
Agreed, JC, that the pregnancy twist was a shocking one, but also fairly nonsensical. It is hard to believe that Peggy wouldn't even guess that she was pregnant for 9 months. Morning sickness? Other than that, I think Mad Men does what it does very well, and there hasn't really been another show out there that's mimicked its slice-of-life, Great American Novel approach. I probably prefer watching The Shield and Halt and Catch Fire, among others (honestly not sure if I prefer it to Breaking Bad or not, they're both pretty great), but they still don't really offer what Mad Men does, so I find the argument in favor of Mad Men's all-time status a strong one. Season 2 is my favorite, but I do struggle to articulate why that is. The show's rhythms just seemed to click for me on every level that year. Season 2 tends to be one of my least favourite seasons, probably second only to Season 3. I think it has the worst episode of the series with the Season 2 premiere and it just doesn't really explore much thematically beyond Don's infidelity, and this is then just repeated again the next season. That's an overall good list though Incandescence, I think you've caught most of my favourite episodes including "Signal 30" which isn't one a lot of people catch. Season 5 kind of tapers off at the end, but the stretch of episodes between "Mystery Date" to "Lady Lazarus" is probably the most incredible stretch of that length that I've ever seen. I can see arguments both ways about "The Other Woman." It doesn't bother me but I don't think the episode is one of the series best. In terms of Season 1, I don't think the show had much of a budget at all in that first season, which explains some of the poor prosthetics. January Jones has no range to her acting, but she doesn't really need it to play early season Betty who I think is a fascinating character. There's not a lot of depth to the character though, so there doesn't need to be a lot of depth to the acting. With Strange New Worlds there's nothing new or groundbreaking, but it executes very well on a character level and gets better and deepens those relationships pretty much every episode. I'm always going to be partial to the LOST style formatting of focusing on a character per week though. I wasn't sold through the first couple of episodes but by the time we got midway I was really enjoying it.
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Post by ThirdMan on Sept 23, 2022 8:32:14 GMT -8
Agreed, JC, that the pregnancy twist was a shocking one, but also fairly nonsensical. It is hard to believe that Peggy wouldn't even guess that she was pregnant for 9 months. Morning sickness? Other than that, I think Mad Men does what it does very well, and there hasn't really been another show out there that's mimicked its slice-of-life, Great American Novel approach. I probably prefer watching The Shield and Halt and Catch Fire, among others (honestly not sure if I prefer it to Breaking Bad or not, they're both pretty great), but they still don't really offer what Mad Men does, so I find the argument in favor of Mad Men's all-time status a strong one. Season 2 is my favorite, but I do struggle to articulate why that is. The show's rhythms just seemed to click for me on every level that year. In terms of Season 1, I don't think the show had much of a budget at all in that first season, which explains some of the poor prosthetics. January Jones has no range to her acting, but she doesn't really need it to play early season Betty who I think is a fascinating character. There's not a lot of depth to the character though, so there doesn't need to be a lot of depth to the acting. Could you elaborate on what you find "fascinating" about Betty in Season 1? Just curious...
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Post by Jeremy on Sept 23, 2022 13:18:18 GMT -8
I don't remember a lot of Mad Men episodes by name, apart from the most famous ones, and the relatively low plotting of the series makes it tough for me to determine my favorite episodes. I recall that "Shoot" is probably the best Betty episode of the first season - and one of the very few episodes of the series that tried exploring her character in a way that didn't feel forced or misplaced. (Another one was the underrated "The Fog" in Season 3.) The final scene in that episode is still one of my favorites from the show.
Incandescence, what did you make of "The Crash"? It's one of my own favorite Mad Men episodes, but it's pretty polarizing; I recall the critics at the time really filleted it.
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Post by Jay on Sept 24, 2022 8:43:55 GMT -8
Is anyone else watching The Sandman or am I the only one here? I figured that the alt-comics origins would've appealed to someone around here. I am not quite done with the first season and so I wouldn't venture too many opinions yet aside from I've felt it hit its stride as it settles into an arc, whereas the first several episodes, while visually great, felt as if they were overburdened with world-building.
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Post by ThirdMan on Sept 24, 2022 12:45:37 GMT -8
Someone at work was encouraging me to watch that show, but eh, I'll wait to see it it gets a good response when it gets to its second season, as it's gotten a pretty mixed reaction thus far (which is not uncommon for even the most historically acclaimed shows in their first season, as critics are often very non-committal at first).
Anyways, as I've got Disney Plus until October 10th, I've decided to start watching Only Murders In The Building. Despite my general indifference to most things Martin Short-related (I just don't jibe with his comic sensibility), it's engaging enough. I didn't realize until recently how peculiar Selena Gomez's voice is (I gather she has lupus which, combined with the medication she takes for it, limits her vocal range to some degree).
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Post by Jeremy on Sept 24, 2022 16:42:54 GMT -8
I read the original Sandman series year ago - I think I stopped around halfway through, as while it was very well-written and imaginative, the extreme level of disturbing content and hellish imagery was pretty tough to stomach. (This series famously laid the groundwork for DC Comics' R-rated Vertigo line, including other comics that would turn into TV shows like Preacher and Y: The Last Man.) I haven't had much motivation to check out the TV series, in part because of Netflix's fairly uneven track record with hourlong dramas, and the generally (and unsurprisingly) lukewarm reaction to a story that was for decades deemed unfilmable.
I loved the first season of Only Murders - great blend of mystery and comedy, with wonderful interplay from the three leads - but I checked out pretty early in Season Two, which didn't hook me nearly enough to overcome its feel of needless brand extension. (The show briefly meta-jokes about the way it's trying rehash the formula its second season, but not quite at the 22 Jump Street level that would make the surrounding story worthwhile.)
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Post by Jay on Sept 25, 2022 6:31:32 GMT -8
(sighs) I suppose both of those points are fair. There have been multiple people who have exploded so far and the Corinthian does have a thing for noshing on eyeballs. The acting is nice though and the visuals are often compelling. I'm trying to add to the numbers because it was a favorite comic series of a friend of mine, although we can't quite decide what it is that Dream's helmet does aside from look cool.
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Post by Incandescence 112 on Sept 25, 2022 12:36:13 GMT -8
I don't remember a lot of Mad Men episodes by name, apart from the most famous ones, and the relatively low plotting of the series makes it tough for me to determine my favorite episodes. I recall that "Shoot" is probably the best Betty episode of the first season - and one of the very few episodes of the series that tried exploring her character in a way that didn't feel forced or misplaced. (Another one was the underrated "The Fog" in Season 3.) The final scene in that episode is still one of my favorites from the show. Incandescence, what did you make of "The Crash"? It's one of my own favorite Mad Men episodes, but it's pretty polarizing; I recall the critics at the time really filleted it. I think "The Crash" is one of the best as well. Could've easily made my top 20 list. I thought the way it portrayed Don's disorientation and how that mirrored the way that his life was falling apart was expertly done. I really like Season 6 as a whole, actually. Doesn't get off to the best start, but I love the way that it eventually chronicles his descent--ending with his relationship with Sally being forever stained and his Hershey pitch ultimately leading to the acquisition of SC&P by McCann. Of course, the ending somewhat implies that he eventually returns to McCann and pitches one of the most famous ads ever. Hm.
Funnily enough, I really struggled to get through "The Fog", but then again, I struggled to get through most of S3. "Mystery Date", another episode people seem to love, I found just thudded (Don's fantasy was a little too OTT for me). It was nice to say bye to Greg for the rest of the run, though. Almost every scene with him post That Scene in the Sterling Cooper office was...a little painful to watch.
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Post by Incandescence 112 on Sept 25, 2022 12:41:32 GMT -8
I like a lot of Mad Men, particularly those early seasons. And I still kind of hate "The Other Woman," even after everyone has told me how wrong I am. There are also many reasons why the first season of DS9 turned out the way it did: being caught between its own identity and being a TNG clone, not having Ron Moore and Rene Echevarria on the writing staff yet, having to crank out 20 episodes in short order, etc. I think modern Trek has far fewer excuses. Over 5 years in, and not one episode as good as Duet, Necessary Evil, or The Wire. Yeah, DS9 relied a bit too much on TNG structure and cameos in the early going (presumably some of this was mandated by Paramount). Despite a handful of good episodes, I do think it is a generally mediocre season of TV, even for its time. (Reminder that the 1992-93 TV season had a lot of gems - Simpsons and Seinfeld hitting their peaks, Cheers ending on a high note, great debut years for Homicide, Batman: The Animated Series, and Larry Sanders.) Might run through the rest of Strange New Worlds at some point soon, though I fear my overall feelings to Trek have cooled in recent years. Mad Men is a very strange mix of the painfully real and poignant with the utterly contrived, so I get if "The Other Woman" fell on the wrong side of that divide for you. I think even you would have to concede that the final Hamm/Olson scene in that episode was brilliantly played, though (and, in my opinion, well seeded).
It is fairly odd to look back and realize that I only love the even numbered TOS movies, Seasons 3-6 of TNG, and Seasons 4-7 of DS9. That is quite a small chunk of the franchise overall, but my feelings on the rest of the franchise hasn't really changed. The last show that truly pushed it forward successfully ended in 1999. That is somewhat of a depressing thought. Here's hoping they can get back on track at some point--but it seems like Bryan Fuller would've been their best bet at that.......
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Post by Jeremy on Sept 25, 2022 14:09:25 GMT -8
"The Other Woman" just combined a lot of my least favorite elements of Mad Men - it tries way too hard to make a (largely redundant) point, and undermines the character growth of prior seasons to do so. Had it been produced a couple of seasons earlier, it may have worked; as it was, the main storyline just felt contrived and off-putting. (Not sure I remember the final Don/Peggy scene; like I said, it's been a while.)
And yeah, "Mystery Date" is another episode I don't care for, mostly due to the ridiculously over-the-top Don story. All in all, Season Five is probably my least favorite season, though that might change on rewatch.
Also, Greg was a terrible person, but I don't think the show really tried to convince the audience he was anything else.
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Post by ThirdMan on Sept 25, 2022 14:28:43 GMT -8
Like Jeremy, I can't really recall most Mad Men episodes by episode title, outside of a select few, like "The Suitcase". Episodes and seasons run together for me, partly due to its serialized nature, but also because I've only watched the complete series through one time.
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