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Post by Jeremy on May 25, 2017 8:02:07 GMT -8
The arcs throughout the season were hit-and-miss, and some of them needed to be trimmed, or cut entirely. Putting James in the Guardian suit still didn't make him interesting, and the Winn/Lyra relationship never really clicked the way it should have. But Kara and Mon-El were fun (to heck with the haters) and Alex also got some good dramatic material this season, especially in her self-titled episode.
Overall, there wasn't enough of an engine driving this season, so the show mostly had to rely on the story of the week.
Arrow had a better finale, but it suffered from the opposite problem. Season Five - while a definite step up from the last two seasons - was too arc-heavy and dragged on much too long (particularly during its middle third).
Somewhere between these two shows, there's a perfect balance. The writers just need to find it.
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Post by Incandescence 112 on May 25, 2017 8:57:43 GMT -8
The arcs throughout the season were hit-and-miss, and some of them needed to be trimmed, or cut entirely. Putting James in the Guardian suit still didn't make him interesting, and the Winn/Lyra relationship never really clicked the way it should have. But Kara and Mon-El were fun (to heck with the haters) and Alex also got some good dramatic material this season, especially in her self-titled episode. Overall, there wasn't enough of an engine driving this season, so the show mostly had to rely on the story of the week. Arrow had a better finale, but it suffered from the opposite problem. Season Five - while a definite step up from the last two seasons - was too arc-heavy and dragged on much too long (particularly during its middle third). Somewhere between these two shows, there's a perfect balance. The writers just need to find it. The Guardian storyline is literally the worst thing in existence. The episode towards the end of the season focusing on him was a little better, but not by much. They could have used that screen time on developing Rhea or Lena. Overall, I think we both agree it was at least an improvement on the first season. With Arrow, the five episodes after the break were the weakest (especially the gun control episode). The first nine episodes had a really good balance. After episode 14, we got 4 arc-ish episodes, all of which were really good (especially "Kapiushon"), but "Dangerous Liaisons" and "Underneath" featured no plot progression against Chase. Episode 21 didn't have much either, but I still liked it a lot. The last 2 episodes were arc-heavy, and I thought they were an absolute blast (especially the finale, which was a good episode by itself, and a perfect one as a culmination of five seasons and a ten-year timespan). I'm not quite sure I understand your criticism. Are you saying the arc had too little progression week-to-week? Or that the arc itself was stretched out over too many episodes? I think you're talking about the former, because the middle third of the season had no arc episodes, in which case I agree with you on it, but not the latter. Josh Segarra was fantastic, chewing every scene, and the episodes focusing on him were the strongest. I didn't feel fatigued by it. I actually wish we'd gotten more Chase screen time. I liked the season quite a bit more than you. I'd place it second best, behind Season 2. It has a few too many lukewarm episodes to be better than Season 2, but was built around a fantastic villain, and had some of the best episodes of the series imo ("Invasion", "What We Leave Behind", "Checkmate", "Kapiushon", "Disbanded", "Missing", and "Lian Yu"). If the season had been mediocre, I wouldn't be watching. But because it was so good, I'm definitely sticking around for Season 6. Especially with that cliffhanger.....
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Post by Jeremy on May 25, 2017 14:39:24 GMT -8
Are you saying the arc had too little progression week-to-week? Or that the arc itself was stretched out over too many episodes? A little of both. Prometheus wasn't a bad villain, but he wasn't strong enough to sustain a full 23-episode season, even with the Tobias Church fakeout. I wish they'd have kept Church around a bit longer, and perhaps not introduced Prometheus until about halfway through the season. The way it was structured, we were left with a lot of midseason standalones that just served to spin the show's wheels. I also didn't think Segarra's performance was that great. Once the character's motivations were revealed, Prometheus lost his mystique and just became a run-of-the-mill villain who kept drumming the same message ("You're a killer, Oliver!") over and over again. This is where a shorter season length would have been useful - an episode like "Kapiushon," while one of the strongest in the season, would have been even more beneficial had it been closer to the finale. But as episode 17, it just felt the like the first of too many climaxes. Still, pound for pound, I really liked the final arc. Though I wish "Dangerous Liaisons" and "Underneath" were more than a simple conflict/resolution two-parter, they were still well-done episodes. And the last two episodes did a nice job of bringing the season (and by extension, the series) full circle. I'll be back for Season Six as well. Arrow may not be a perfect show, but when it's on the mark, it engages me like no other live-action superhero series I've ever seen. I'm glad it's coming back (and truly do hope we've seen the last of the island flashbacks). Season Ranking: 2>1>5>4>3
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Post by ThirdMan on May 25, 2017 15:22:50 GMT -8
But Kara and Mon-El were fun (to heck with the haters)... This. I see viewers saying they hate this guy, and I'm like, "Seriously?" Dude was raised in a chauvinistic, self-absorbed society, but he's doing his best to be better, and be supportive of, and helpful to, those around him. But because he -- a guy with actual superpowers -- wants to help and/or protect his girlfriend (with just cause, because she's constantly throwing herself into dangerous situations recklessly), even though she is superpowered herself, he's worthy of contempt? People go too far with this shit. And as I said, because they had Kara adopt a scolding, perpetually-judging tone for a fair amount of the year (to him, her sister, etc.), if anything, she was the more unlikeable of the two overall. And I say that as someone who found her absolutely, 100% engaging in Season 1.
Re: the finale, they certainly went for broke with the spectacle, even if the show's budget couldn't totally accomodate it. They probably didn't integrate most of the supporting cast all that well, beyond having them reel off plot exposition here and there. The show's always been a mixed bag, and this followed suit. At least they had Cat Grant quietly acknowledge the silly secret-identity stuff, though it's too bad Lena's too dumb to see it.
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Post by Jeremy on May 25, 2017 16:57:44 GMT -8
The Mon-El hate is especially annoying given that the character is a deconstruction of male chauvinism. Yes, he grows more serious with time (it's called character development, folks), but his relationship with Kara is meant to poke fun at the typical "strong masculine superhero" cliche. Don't people understand irony?
I do wonder when Lena will learn Kara/Supergirl's secret. (The 1960s comics had Lena almost discovering Supergirl's identity a great many times - she finally learned it in the early '80s.) Given that Katie McGrath will be a regular next season, I expect she'll stumble on it eventually.
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Post by Incandescence 112 on May 25, 2017 18:12:33 GMT -8
Are you saying the arc had too little progression week-to-week? Or that the arc itself was stretched out over too many episodes? A little of both. Prometheus wasn't a bad villain, but he wasn't strong enough to sustain a full 23-episode season, even with the Tobias Church fakeout. I wish they'd have kept Church around a bit longer, and perhaps not introduced Prometheus until about halfway through the season. The way it was structured, we were left with a lot of midseason standalones that just served to spin the show's wheels. I also didn't think Segarra's performance was that great. Once the character's motivations were revealed, Prometheus lost his mystique and just became a run-of-the-mill villain who kept drumming the same message ("You're a killer, Oliver!") over and over again. This is where a shorter season length would have been useful - an episode like "Kapiushon," while one of the strongest in the season, would have been even more beneficial had it been closer to the finale. But as episode 17, it just felt the like the first of too many climaxes. Still, pound for pound, I really liked the final arc. Though I wish "Dangerous Liaisons" and "Underneath" were more than a simple conflict/resolution two-parter, they were still well-done episodes. And the last two episodes did a nice job of bringing the season (and by extension, the series) full circle. I'll be back for Season Six as well. Arrow may not be a perfect show, but when it's on the mark, it engages me like no other live-action superhero series I've ever seen. I'm glad it's coming back (and truly do hope we've seen the last of the island flashbacks). Season Ranking: 2>1>5>4>3 That's a totally fair assessment of the season. They could take some hints from you about season structure (though to be fair, what show shouldn't take hints from you ?), and it probably would have been stronger for it. Ah well. Season ranking: 2>5>1>4>3
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Post by Jeremy on May 26, 2017 5:21:50 GMT -8
They could take some hints from you about season structure (though to be fair, what show shouldn't take hints from you ?) This is a valid question. Semi-related: How's Legends of Tomorrow been lately? I've heard negative things about Season One, but fans really seem to like Season Two. I'm kind of interested in some of the show's loopier elements, but not sure I want to sit through the early growing pains.
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Post by Incandescence 112 on May 26, 2017 6:53:49 GMT -8
They could take some hints from you about season structure (though to be fair, what show shouldn't take hints from you ?) This is a valid question. Semi-related: How's Legends of Tomorrow been lately? I've heard negative things about Season One, but fans really seem to like Season Two. I'm kind of interested in some of the show's loopier elements, but not sure I want to sit through the early growing pains. I could summarize the first season for you; it's kind of a mess. Not unwatchable, just poor. Some fun stuff, lots of dull stuff as well. The second season is really fun. The first half is the dumb kind of fun, but the second half does some really clever stuff, deepens some characters, especially the main villains, and ends on an exciting note. It's kind of like Arrow. It's not going to make anyone's best of the year list, but it's very enjoyable. Just a different kind of enjoyable. And Mick Rory is the best. Not that many people watched it, but those that did tuned in pretty much every week. A Vox article summed it up nicely: the gang from It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia stole the TARDIS from Doctor Who. If that sounds fun to you, you'll almost definitely enjoy it. So, to sum up my rambling thoughts: first season=mess. Second season=very fun. Doesn't always work, but when it does, it's genuinely good. Oh, and it has none of that self important moping crap that other DC properties feel they need to have. It has serious moments, but they never overshadow the joy and wonder of the premise.
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Post by Jeremy on May 26, 2017 9:01:40 GMT -8
Well, I'm not a huge Doctor Who fan, but I do love Always Sunny. As long as the characters click, I expect I can enjoy it.
You can summarize the first season for me (or tell me which episodes I need to watch), and I'll try to catch up before Season Three.
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Post by Incandescence 112 on May 27, 2017 5:29:57 GMT -8
Well, I'm not a huge Doctor Who fan, but I do love Always Sunny. As long as the characters click, I expect I can enjoy it. You can summarize the first season for me (or tell me which episodes I need to watch), and I'll try to catch up before Season Three. Here goes: SO, in the year 2166, Vandal Savage has taken over the world. He kills Time Master (an organization that regulates the timeline) Rip Hunter's family. Hunter tries to convince the Time Masters to stop Savage, but they refuse. He takes matter into his own hands, by traveling to 2016 and recruiting a group of supposed heroes: Captain Cold (Leonard Snart), Heatwave (Mick Rory), and both halves of Firestorm Martin Stein and Jefferson Jackson from The Flash, Sara Lance and Ray Palmer from Arrow, and the Hawkpeople Carter and Kendra (you may or may not know who they are, it's not important,) but then it's revealed that the reason he chose them was because they're useless and have no effect on the timeline. After the pilot, they go on various missions to stop Savage, all of which fail. Around the midpoint of the season, the Time Masters kidnap Rory and brainwash against the team. Once they free him, the team decides to redeem him, which they believe is possible because of Snart's arc throughout the season, in which he becomes a hero (the best part about the season). Anyway, they eventually get tired of hopping around the timestream, and they travel to the future to take Savage head on. They succeed in capturing him, and bring him back to the Time Masters. Once they arrive at the Time Masters' base, it's revealed that they were working with Savage all along, to stop a future alien invasion by Thanagarians(!), and manipulating the team using a sci-fi thingy called the Oculus. They send Savage back to 2166, and he kill's Hunter's family. The team manages to escape and destroy the Oculus at the cost of Snart's life. Through a complicated unimportant method, they manage to kill Savage (in a pretty satisfying way). The hawkpeople stay behind to defend 2016. Rip and the remaining crew (Sara, Ray, Heatwave, and Firestorm) depart to protect the timeline now that the Time Masters are gone. Before they can take off, Rex Tyler of the Justice Society of America has a message for them: wherever they're about to go: don't. <wipes sweat off brow>
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Post by Jeremy on May 27, 2017 18:11:12 GMT -8
Wow, I lost count of all the uses of the word "time" in that paragraph. But I got the basic idea. (I think. It doesn't seem to clash with any previous tidbits I've heard about the show.)
I'll try watching Season Two over the summer, and will post my thoughts as I go along.
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Post by Incandescence 112 on May 27, 2017 20:01:34 GMT -8
10. Actually not that much, considering that all of the uses were as a part of another word. Anyway, enjoy!
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Post by Jeremy on Aug 15, 2017 15:31:45 GMT -8
Turns out that Arrow will again have a non-super-powered Big Bad for its next season: martial-arts master Richard Dragon.
This is a good sign. Now let's just hope he doesn't just spend the first 20 episodes of the season sitting around making evil faces.
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Post by ThirdMan on Aug 15, 2017 15:41:45 GMT -8
Re: supervillains, if they sit around making plans and monologuing, they're often considered ineffectual, whereas if they're proactive and immediately get into a (usually physical) confrontation with the hero, they play their hand too early and often lack dimension.
At any rate, I'm much more interested in where they take Gotham this year than any of the CW superhero shows. The villains are out in force, and Scarecrow's up next. I can fault the writing on all of these comic-book programs, but I find very little to criticize w/r/t Gotham's visual craft. And most of the actors are doing pretty entertaining work as well.
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Post by Jeremy on Aug 15, 2017 16:24:26 GMT -8
if they're proactive and immediately get into a (usually physical) confrontation with the hero, they play their hand too early and often lack dimension. This was my first complaint with Arrow S4. Damien Darhk has a climactic confrontation with Green Arrow in the season premiere, which was way too soon for a long-term villain in a 23-episode season. Much of what followed felt inexorably slow and padded. I'm hoping The Defenders (which has only 8 episodes) paces itself properly, although critics are claiming it also has a bit of a slow start.
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