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Post by Jeremy on Dec 19, 2017 19:45:13 GMT -8
I agree with just about everrything in that review. The only area where we differ is I don't have much time for the silly fanboy backlash. Regardless, The Empire Strikes Back got a mixed critical and fan response when it premiered, and was only recognized (by many) as the finest Star Wars film years later, so who knows what's going on in folks' heads. I also don't usually get involved responding to fanboy backlash, but the controversy surrounding this film (particularly the way it seems to have totally split the fanbase) made me think it was worth responding to. I've seen some heavy criticisms of some of the film's choices, so this was my ever-so-humble rebuttal. It's true that Empire was not a beloved film at the time it came out. According to my Starlog archives, famed sci-fi writer David Gerrold gave it a fairly scathing review back in 1980. (Although he also strongly disliked Return of the Jedi, so maybe he just had a general sequel aversion.)
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Post by otherscott on Dec 20, 2017 13:42:23 GMT -8
I saw this last night and I must say it impressed me - it may be the movie that finally has made me into a Star Wars fan. Which is different from saying that it's my favourite Star Wars movie which I still think does indeed belong to TESB.
But it is the most ambitious Star Wars movie ever and that creates a lot of messiness there, which is why it's not a very perfect movie. But the movie is also very anti-Star Wars in some ways which is what creates the fan backlash. It undermines some of the problematic aspects of the movies that need undermining - I don't want to go into specifics for spoilers sakes - which in turn grounds the universe even more. I think it does so in such a way that doesn't affect the enjoyment of movie's past but rather grounds them with the understanding of the realities that exist behind them. It defies being escapist, which is awfully unfortunate for the fans just there for the escapism.
So yeah, I liked it a lot. I still probably liked the idea and ambitions of the movie more than the movie itself but I'm glad a movie that actually shows some of the dark sides of the hero mentality strewn thoughout the series were actually addressed.
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Star Wars
Dec 20, 2017 13:49:00 GMT -8
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Post by Zarnium on Dec 20, 2017 13:49:00 GMT -8
I've really got to see the movie just because not knowing what the deal is with this supposed controversy is driving me crazy. Especially since the last two movies were very well received by fans, so I presume there's more to it than "it's new, so it sucks."
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Star Wars
Dec 20, 2017 23:12:42 GMT -8
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Post by ThirdMan on Dec 20, 2017 23:12:42 GMT -8
Scott, go ahead and unleash the spoilers on this thread. Just post it in a colour that's close to the background of this site, so those using the Recent Posts function can just avert their eyes if they haven't seen it yet. I don't find this film the least bit controversial, and thought it followed a natural trajectory from the last one, but I'd like to read your thoughts w/r/t why the hardcore SW fans are so divided.
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Post by buffyholic on Dec 21, 2017 6:53:02 GMT -8
I saw it on Monday with a friend. I liked it a lot but I also found it to be very flawed, uneven, and without a clear focus. I felt it wanted to tell too many stories at once but there wasn´t enough room for the movie to breathe. The main storyline with Rey and Kylo Ren was very good and I loved all of it, how it kinda flowed naturally, but the rest was a bit of a mess, really. And am I the only one thinking it has some bad editing? Also, the characters are underused. But whenever I try to explain that it has flaws, even though I really liked it, some people look at me like I´m crazy or something.
Still, I liked TFA and Rogue One a lot more.
PS - The fight with the Red Stormtroopers or Imperial guards is insane. I loved it.
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Post by otherscott on Dec 21, 2017 9:14:43 GMT -8
SPOILERS
So this movie has a major theme about tearing away nostalgia and the idealized visions people have of history and the world and replacing it with reality. That's what makes it ambitious, they tried to ground a Star Wars movie with prominent themes of why rebellion against authority who is on your side can be dangerous, and how there are shades of grey to the universe, it is not just light against dark. It has a world weary Luke Skywalker who is mostly committed to letting the world unfold without him involved so he doesn't have to take responsibility for any events that happen. It takes a lot of the concepts that made the original trilogy fun, and says - yes but here's the downside. And people who love those trilogies and hold them dear don't want to see that downside, they want the movies to keep operating like they always have.
So to go into some examples, so much of the movie focussed on Poe trying to undermine the plan to evacuate by disabling the main First Order ship tracker doohicky. He never approaches Holdo with this plan, he never even gave her a chance to have a better one. He's the smart one and HE'S the one who's going to save the Resistance, just like Han Solo and Luke Skywalker with their crazy low odds, potentially ill advised plans before him. And that's what Star Wars is a lot of the time, people trying crazy schemes as a last resort to save themselves from a greater enemy. But this movie had the bravery to say - sometimes this isn't GOOD - there's a reason these plans are crazy and should only be attempted as an absolute last resort, not as a renegade move to make yourself a hero. People who hate the movie hate the middle act because they found it pointless, and sometimes pointlessness in itself is a point, they are leading you along an expected path to show you why you shouldn't expect it.
Another example is the greater focus on the grey side of the Force, so to speak - the people who are neither pure good and peace seeking nor pure evil and power seeking. And that's not a very Star Wars-y concept, Star Wars is about the constant push and pull of good vs evil. And this movie expands that and shows that there's more levels, there's in betweens, and that the GOOD sometimes relies on the support of the compromised to accomplish their goals. And that's not something the more escapist of the fans want to hear.
It takes the nostalgia of the original Star Wars and undermines it - which is brilliant for making a good movie and refreshing the franchise and really updating it so it can keep living in the 21st century, but not so good if you just wanted more of what the original Star Wars was.
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Post by ThirdMan on Dec 21, 2017 10:56:53 GMT -8
All excellent points, Scott. That said, it's just further confirmation that a lot of the Star Wars fanbase just wants to continue to exist in its own self-imposed bubble.
buffyholic - I think Finn was a little underutilized compared to the previous film, but felt the rest of the cast was used more than appropriately. And I also feel the editing is as good as it's ever been in this series (which is often clunky in that regard), especially from a visual continuity and composition standpoint. Rogue One was alright, but too murky visually to leave much of an impression on me (felt like every other sci-fi film out there), and most of the characters lacked charisma (save for Alan Tudyk, perhaps). The Force Awakens felt like it was going through the motions a bit, thematically, just to re-establish the baseline for the general audience: it served its purpose, but didn't resonate much with me, particularly when I watched it again at home. I preferred the thematical ambition and eccentricity of this film, think it's easily the best-looking in the series, and has the most nuance in character, and I'm a little disappointed that Vanilla Abrams will be back directing the third one (Lucasfilm was smart to put Johnson in charge of a future, non-Skywalker-related trilogy, though).
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Post by buffyholic on Dec 22, 2017 2:07:25 GMT -8
Vanilla Abrams? That just made me laugh. But funnily enough, not a big fan of Abrams myself. Also, most of the editing I was talking about refers to slow motions (who don´t work) and some scenes where they seem... I don´t know, not to do anything. otherscott, great points, and you made me want to watch it again. I´ll be honest: also, not a fan of how Luke is in the beginning. What do you guys think of Benicio del Toro´s character? I thought it was an odd inclusion.
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Star Wars
Dec 22, 2017 3:59:35 GMT -8
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Post by ThirdMan on Dec 22, 2017 3:59:35 GMT -8
Del Toro just felt like he was doing his usual, mumble-mouthed shtick.
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Post by Zarnium on Dec 23, 2017 20:06:45 GMT -8
I finally saw it, and thought it was very good. I loved Luke's character arc, and thought it was a nice conclusion to his story. I rather liked Rose, as well, though she doesn't have quite the chemistry with Finn that Rey did. I agree with Jeremy's review, Finn felt a little left-out, with the real meaty character development going to practically everyone else in the movie. I'm not sure where his character really has to move forward from here.
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Post by Jeremy on Dec 23, 2017 20:25:38 GMT -8
I really hope they have some good material planned for Finn in Episode IX, because as fun as his scenes with Rose are, they really aren't the power couple that the producers want them to be.
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Star Wars
Dec 23, 2017 21:33:09 GMT -8
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Post by ThirdMan on Dec 23, 2017 21:33:09 GMT -8
A guy I spoke to at the gym today hated it. Complained about "social-justice warriors" and them having all the female characters in charge making the men look stupid or incompetent. Funny thing is, another guy at the gym, who LOVED the film overall, also complained about the female authority figures. So let's see, we have Leia and Laura Dern's character giving orders and being a bit evasive with their plans, and Rose exercising some degree of influence over Finn. On the other hand, Rey seeks guidance from Luke, and is influenced in her decision-making by Kylo Ren. Snoke, a male, rules over the First Order. Yeah, the grunts of the First Order, and particularly Domhnall Gleeson's character, are made to look silly at times for comedic purposes, but there are no women around to witness it. Not that I'd have a problem with warmongering men being mocked for their idiocy (were that the central premise of the movie, rather than one element amongst many), but the pushback amongst some male viewers over having a few capable female leaders in the film is pretty telling. ETA: Oh yeah, the guy today also complained about Finn being tied up with Rose when he previously had a thing with Rey, to which I responded, "What are you talking about? Clearly Finn and POE are soulmates."
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Post by Jeremy on Dec 24, 2017 6:16:43 GMT -8
Overall, though, there seems to be less controversy over the gender/racial roles in this film than in other recent Star Wars entries. Probably because people have found other things to complain about. (And also because, unlike Rogue One, the screenwriters aren't igniting flame wars by tweeting about how their film is really a commentary on sexism and white supremacy.)
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Post by buffyholic on Dec 26, 2017 2:22:25 GMT -8
Sometimes, I feel like I´m the crazy one because most reviews I read and some people I hear just say how good it is. And I´m like "I like it but I can´t ignore the flaws, people!" or I would like to say that. My friend who saw it with me said it was really, really good and was surprised I had some negative points to say about the movie. She was all "What do you mean about uneven?" and stuff like that.
I know people have different tastes in everything but sometimes, I can´t help or explain it, I feel like I´m the odd person out. Even though I´ve already read reviews who kinda back me up.
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Star Wars
Jan 8, 2018 20:46:55 GMT -8
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Post by ThirdMan on Jan 8, 2018 20:46:55 GMT -8
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