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Post by otherscott on Aug 9, 2019 10:26:28 GMT -8
I completely missed this discussion while it was happening.
I posted a pretty detailed list of thoughts on the backlash to The Last Jedi, but I think in general it's the first Star Wars film to actually have some depth to it. I think that also helped contribute to a little bit of the backlash, but not that much of it. I think there's more to the preference of the original Star Wars films than JUST nostalgia though.
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Star Wars
Aug 9, 2019 12:48:00 GMT -8
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Post by Zarnium on Aug 9, 2019 12:48:00 GMT -8
Well, there's a difference between merely preferring the originals, and despising the new ones so much that you misrepresent several scenes to make your point.
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Quiara
Grade School
Posts: 775
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Post by Quiara on Aug 9, 2019 19:14:27 GMT -8
The films composing the Original Trilogy, paraphrasing the words of Cosmonaut Variety Hour, are dumb, have wooden acting, the depth of a puddle, and a super-convenient plot structure. Yet people (himself included) love them anyway-because they feel the things they do right outweigh those faults. I don't understand why the New Trilogy is ripped apart when the Original Trilogy is also far from greatness. Whatever. Nostalgia is the obvious answer. The less obvious answer is that the new Star Wars films exist in relation to the old Star Wars films, while the old films are... obviously not original of course but unique entities inspired by work outside the Star Wars universe. I think that makes them feel fresh even though they are derivative. I think I nailed it, guys. Scott is also right though. Any sequel has to choose to what extent it'll slavishly imitate the original work and to what extent it'll alter or deconstruct the original work. There's an interesting gradient there - make it too similar and the whole endeavor feels pointless (see: The Lion King in "live action" !?!?), make it too different and people who liked the original will get mad. Disney for the most part has taken the really smart route, which is to take their existing intellectual properties from before the great "awokening" of popular culture and basically remake them beat-for-beat, but with racial, gender, etc. diversity. Which seems like the opposite of a safe bet if you trust a handful of Twitter nazis, but I think the vast majority of moviegoers (and even a majority of racist moviegoers) don't super care if the little mermaid is black. The Last Jedi is the film in their empire which most viciously deconstructs the formula in ways that go beyond the (literal) skin-deep changes; no wonder it's ground zero for all the hate. (And yes, there was a racist backlash to the film, but I'd argue that Kelly Marie Tran was just the convenient scapegoat for the film's much deeper opposition to the standard Star War formula.) You can see this in other media franchises too, by the way. Pokemon is my go-to example (the most beloved game in the franchise is the faithful remake of the glorified expansion pack to the original titles; people still routinely badmouth the game that most actively deconstructs the Pokemon formula; I think the two are about equal in quality).
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Post by Incandescence 112 on Aug 11, 2019 16:09:54 GMT -8
Nostalgia is the obvious answer. The less obvious answer is that the new Star Wars films exist in relation to the old Star Wars films, while the old films are... obviously not original of course but unique entities inspired by work outside the Star Wars universe. I think that makes them feel fresh even though they are derivative. I think I nailed it, guys. Scott is also right though. Any sequel has to choose to what extent it'll slavishly imitate the original work and to what extent it'll alter or deconstruct the original work. There's an interesting gradient there - make it too similar and the whole endeavor feels pointless (see: The Lion King in "live action" !?!?), make it too different and people who liked the original will get mad. Disney for the most part has taken the really smart route, which is to take their existing intellectual properties from before the great "awokening" of popular culture and basically remake them beat-for-beat, but with racial, gender, etc. diversity. Which seems like the opposite of a safe bet if you trust a handful of Twitter nazis, but I think the vast majority of moviegoers (and even a majority of racist moviegoers) don't super care if the little mermaid is black. The Last Jedi is the film in their empire which most viciously deconstructs the formula in ways that go beyond the (literal) skin-deep changes; no wonder it's ground zero for all the hate. (And yes, there was a racist backlash to the film, but I'd argue that Kelly Marie Tran was just the convenient scapegoat for the film's much deeper opposition to the standard Star War formula.) You can see this in other media franchises too, by the way. Pokemon is my go-to example (the most beloved game in the franchise is the faithful remake of the glorified expansion pack to the original titles; people still routinely badmouth the game that most actively deconstructs the Pokemon formula; I think the two are about equal in quality). Some people's problem with the Last Jedi (myself included) was that it didn't go far enough-it almost deconstructed the franchise, then backed down at the last second. Still a good film, especially compared to others of its type, but it could have been something great. I doubt The Rise of Skywalker will come close to that, but maybe Abrams will surprise me. I have loved some of his work in the past.
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Post by Jeremy on Aug 11, 2019 18:43:54 GMT -8
I think, to an extent, the sequels were always doomed to face some level of fan backlash. Force Awakens got flak for being too similar to the original films; Last Jedi got flak for being too different. Star Wars is so popular and such an indelible part of the pop-culture landscape that any attempt to continue the story was bound to be met with resistance.
I'm sure there will be plenty of resistance to The Rise of Skywalker as well. Though I admit that film does have me concerned - Abrams is talented, but I can't help worrying that he'll see the backlash to Episode VIII as an indication to undo the developments of Rian Johnson's film. Given how rarely he's had to "end" storylines (both big and small screen) in his career, I'm not sure what to expect.
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Post by Zarnium on Aug 12, 2019 17:08:01 GMT -8
You know, the weird thing is, I don't actually see nearly as much backlash towards the prequels anymore. It used to be you'd look at the comments on any article or video about Star Wars and they'd be full of people complaining about how George Lucas ruined the franchise and how dumb the prequels were. Now, I see comments about how Disney has strayed too far from Lucas' vision, and the prequels are generally accepted as canon without complaint. Like, look at any Youtube video about Star Wars lore that relies heavily on tying the prequel trilogy into the original trilogy, and you'll mostly find people complaining about the Disney movies. You know, about how liberals ruined the franchise with their Mary Sue Jedi prodigy, even though Rey progresses at about the same rate with about the same amount of training as Luke does in the original trilogy. I mean, Luke's Jedi training amounts to about a week or so with Yoda and then he's a Master in the next movie despite leaving without finishing his training, which is about the same amount of time as Rey spends with Luke, and Luke has about as many moments as Rey where he's shown to be far more competent at various skills than his experiences should allow for. (And let's not even talk about Anakin, which shows how good Lucas himself is at avoiding Mary Sue characters when left to his own devices.)
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Post by otherscott on Aug 13, 2019 9:00:29 GMT -8
I think I nailed it, guys. Scott is also right though. Any sequel has to choose to what extent it'll slavishly imitate the original work and to what extent it'll alter or deconstruct the original work. There's an interesting gradient there - make it too similar and the whole endeavor feels pointless (see: The Lion King in "live action" !?!?), make it too different and people who liked the original will get mad. Disney for the most part has taken the really smart route, which is to take their existing intellectual properties from before the great "awokening" of popular culture and basically remake them beat-for-beat, but with racial, gender, etc. diversity. Which seems like the opposite of a safe bet if you trust a handful of Twitter nazis, but I think the vast majority of moviegoers (and even a majority of racist moviegoers) don't super care if the little mermaid is black. The Last Jedi is the film in their empire which most viciously deconstructs the formula in ways that go beyond the (literal) skin-deep changes; no wonder it's ground zero for all the hate. (And yes, there was a racist backlash to the film, but I'd argue that Kelly Marie Tran was just the convenient scapegoat for the film's much deeper opposition to the standard Star War formula.) You can see this in other media franchises too, by the way. Pokemon is my go-to example (the most beloved game in the franchise is the faithful remake of the glorified expansion pack to the original titles; people still routinely badmouth the game that most actively deconstructs the Pokemon formula; I think the two are about equal in quality). I don't think racism is much of an issue in people's reaction to the Star Wars sequels. I would say sexism is much more the concern, especially as the fandom is made up of a lot of the nerd culture which has traditionally been less than charitable to the females that dare impose on them. There's certain female archtypes that are acceptable, the cool chicks - like Rey or Leia in the new series. The women who aren't afraid to be feminine but show up the guys (Holdo) are not one of those acceptable archetypes as they are seen as planted by the WOKE crew to raise awareness. That sort of thing doesn't belong in their beloved Star Wars.
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Quiara
Grade School
Posts: 775
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Post by Quiara on Aug 13, 2019 14:15:59 GMT -8
I thought people hated Rey though.
And by people I mean "insufferable manchildren."
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Post by Jeremy on Aug 13, 2019 15:05:22 GMT -8
Yep, there were people who hated Rey when Force Awakens debuted. Those people also hated the idea of a black Stormtrooper when Finn showed up in the first trailer. But those people (or "insufferable manchildren," so to speak) were far less common than the Internet would have us believe, given that Force Awakens is the highest-grossing film in domestic box-office history. All the talk by the online media about a "racist backlash" to the film (much like the recent nonexistent "backlash" to Little Mermaid) was exaggerated and overblown.
The criticism of Holdo doesn't strike me as sexist per se; it's more connected to the fact that her arc in Last Jedi is one of the film's weaker links. Why she didn't tell Poe about her escape plan is a mystery the Internet continues to puzzle about to this day.
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Post by otherscott on Aug 15, 2019 12:20:43 GMT -8
Yep, there were people who hated Rey when Force Awakens debuted. Those people also hated the idea of a black Stormtrooper when Finn showed up in the first trailer. But those people (or "insufferable manchildren," so to speak) were far less common than the Internet would have us believe, given that Force Awakens is the highest-grossing film in domestic box-office history. All the talk by the online media about a "racist backlash" to the film (much like the recent nonexistent "backlash" to Little Mermaid) was exaggerated and overblown. This is correct, no one who I have any time for whatsoever has an issue with Rey being a woman or there being a black stormtrooper. And I have a lot of time for people in general. I think it's one of the show's stronger links, personally. She doesn't tell Poe the plan because the plan is sensitive, and Poe had just been demoted so he's not on the need to know basis in terms of what the plan actually is. It proved to be a mistake, but only because Poe had such a hero complex that he needed to do something crazy and, frankly, dumb, to try and save everyone himself. I think there is some good counter-criticism of the male hero complex that we see in a lot of stories (and frankly, in society), but a lot of the general Star Wars nerd fandom didn't really have the time for that type of deconstruction.
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Star Wars
Aug 25, 2019 6:54:00 GMT -8
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Post by Zarnium on Aug 25, 2019 6:54:00 GMT -8
I'm thinking about watching every theatrical, live-action Star Wars movie in chronological order before Rise of Skywalker, see how well they all fit together. See if the prequels are still bad, the originals are still good, and if the Disney movies are actually feminazi garbage.
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Post by Jeremy on Aug 25, 2019 20:11:48 GMT -8
Oh god, that just reminds me of all the people who spent years hearing praise of the Star Wars films and thought "Well, guess I'd better start with Episode One!" Those poor souls.
On a less depressing note, that rumored Obi-Wan film is now going to be an Obi-Wan TV series! Ewan McGregor will star.
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Star Wars
Aug 26, 2019 5:30:18 GMT -8
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Post by Zarnium on Aug 26, 2019 5:30:18 GMT -8
Yeah, and The Mandalorian looks good, too.
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Star Wars
Aug 28, 2019 19:43:48 GMT -8
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Post by Zarnium on Aug 28, 2019 19:43:48 GMT -8
Ok, so, this is my first time watching The Phantom Menace in well over a decade, and man, I did not remember it being this slow. There are so many boring scenes of people just sitting around talking about political nonsense that no one cares about. And despite all the exposition, I still have no clue what's actually going on. Like, what exactly is the Trade Federation, and what authority do they have that they're able to blockade an entire planet semi-legally? What is it that they actually want to accomplish by doing so? What exactly is the deal they struck with Palpatine and what was his participation actually doing to help them? He just keeps bossing them around with no clear reason why they're listening to him.
And geez, the CGI looks so much more fake and immaterial than I remembered.. the lighting is off or something, the CGI entities never look like they belong in the environment.
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Post by Incandescence 112 on Aug 28, 2019 22:23:38 GMT -8
Ok, so, this is my first time watching The Phantom Menace in well over a decade, and man, I did not remember it being this slow. There are so many boring scenes of people just sitting around talking about political nonsense that no one cares about. And despite all the exposition, I still have no clue what's actually going on. Like, what exactly is the Trade Federation, and what authority do they have that they're able to blockade an entire planet semi-legally? What is it that they actually want to accomplish by doing so? What exactly is the deal they struck with Palpatine and what was his participation actually doing to help them? He just keeps bossing them around with no clear reason why they're listening to him. And geez, the CGI looks so much more fake and immaterial than I remembered.. the lighting is off or something, the CGI entities never look like they belong in the environment. I think George Lucas imagined the Old Republic at this time in a Weimar Republic type scenario-a democracy on the edge of complete collapse. In theory, a compelling concept. He also imagined it as a Doctor Zhivago type story-an epic, doomed romance set against a time of political turmoil (in that case, the Russian Revolution and resulting Civil War). In execution though, it never really comes off that way. We never get a sense of what life is really like in the galaxy-the Star Wars movie universe seems like one of the most empty sci-fi worlds in existence. We also never really get a sense of how the politics of this universe work-too many unexplained organizations. Who are the Sith, and why are they so evil? Who are the Jedi, and why can't these so-called heroes be bothered to stop slavery that they know is going on in the Outer Rim? They have 10 years to free Skywalker's mother, and they let her rot there? Why doesn't the Republic have an army, say, to stop Separatists from seceding? Why do the Separatists want to secede in the first place (there are hints of corruption, but nothing too in-deep)? And who is Darth Maul? Instead of explaining any of these things, we get explanations about....other.....midichlorian.....things. And nothing really needs to be said about the romance aspect, does there? But at least we got the Clone Wars miniseries and CGI show (last season 2020!). So that's something. The prequels could have something truly special, and easily topped the enjoyable but shallow Original Trilogy. Alas, it didn't happen.
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