|
Post by Jeremy on Jan 7, 2018 12:03:34 GMT -8
Season Six wins for me because it has the best mix of serialization, character-heavy drama, and fun standalones. There are some jarring tonal shifts between episodes, and "Profit and Lace" is one of the worst eps the show ever produced, but it's still very entertaining, especially considering the heavy 26-episode load.
Beyond that, I agree with most of your thoughts. Some seasons have higher highs than others, but the overall quality improves gradually over the first six years, and only drops off slightly in the seventh.
I should read some more of the post-series novels. "A Wrinkle in Time" was quite good, but it's largely a fill-in-the-gaps prequel. I'm interested in seeing where the story goes beyond "What You Leave Behind."
|
|
|
Post by Incandescence 112 on Jan 7, 2018 19:33:03 GMT -8
Season Six wins for me because it has the best mix of serialization, character-heavy drama, and fun standalones. There are some jarring tonal shifts between episodes, and "Profit and Lace" is one of the worst eps the show ever produced, but it's still very entertaining, especially considering the heavy 26-episode load. Beyond that, I agree with most of your thoughts. Some seasons have higher highs than others, but the overall quality improves gradually over the first six years, and only drops off slightly in the seventh. I should read some more of the post-series novels. "A Wrinkle in Time" was quite good, but it's largely a fill-in-the-gaps prequel. I'm interested in seeing where the story goes beyond "What You Leave Behind." I think the ambiguity of Garak's back-story actually helped his character. I don't think I want every piece of his back-story filled in honestly. However, I definitely want to read novels set in the aftermath of the Dominion War. I think the seventh season could have been the show's best if they had done the 10 part arc in the middle, and spent a few episodes exploring the ramifications of the war, which profoundly impacted every major power in the Alpha Quadrant. That also might have led them not to make the stupid decision to kill off Damar. I think there are stories dealing with Rom on Ferenginar, Garak on Cardassia, and Kira and Ro butting heads on DS9, but I'll have to look more into it. Let me know if you find any must-reads.
|
|
|
Post by Jeremy on Jan 7, 2018 20:07:11 GMT -8
Will do. Some of the books (particularly the early releases) seem hard to find, though. Guess I'll have to make do with what I can.
In the meantime, here's my own personal DS9 Top 10:
10. "Past Tense" (3x11/12) 9. "It's Only a Paper Moon" (7x10) 8. "For the Uniform" (5x13) 7. "Necessary Evil" (2x08) 6. "Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges" (7x16) 5. "The Visitor" (4x03) 4. "The Wire" (2x22) 3. "Tacking into the Wind" (7x22) 2. "Far Beyond the Stars" (6x13) 1. "In the Pale Moonlight" (6x19)
Obviously weighted toward the last two seasons, but I've got some love for the earlier ones as well.
|
|
|
Post by Incandescence 112 on Jan 8, 2018 15:40:31 GMT -8
Will do. Some of the books (particularly the early releases) seem hard to find, though. Guess I'll have to make do with what I can. In the meantime, here's my own personal DS9 Top 10: 10. "Past Tense" (3x11/12) 9. "It's Only a Paper Moon" (7x10) 8. "For the Uniform" (5x13) 7. "Necessary Evil" (2x08) 6. "Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges" (7x16) 5. "The Visitor" (4x03) 4. "The Wire" (2x22) 3. "Tacking into the Wind" (7x22) 2. "Far Beyond the Stars" (6x13) 1. "In the Pale Moonlight" (6x19) Obviously weighted toward the last two seasons, but I've got some love for the earlier ones as well. Your list really has a nice variety. It's nice to see "It's Only a Paper Moon" on there. The showrunners finally realized that they should follow through with a traumatic event (I really think they should have done an episode like this following "Hard Time".) It's one of the many underrated episodes from the seventh season. People tend to focus on the negatives of the season rather than the positives (of which there are a lot in my opinion). We agree on the top spot as well. "In the Pale Moonlight" is a flawless episode by my books. There's not a shot or line that's out of place. "Far Beyond the Stars" is an episode to point to when someone tries to claim DS9 "isn't Star Trek"-it displays Trekkian values better and more poignantly than any episode of The Original Series.
|
|
|
Post by Jeremy on Jan 8, 2018 16:15:14 GMT -8
The final scene of "In the Pale Moonlight" actually gave me chills the first time I watched it. I've seen hundreds of other Star Trek episodes, yet none of them have had that same effect on me.
And "It's Only a Paper Moon" gets my vote for Most Underrated DS9 episode. I love how it holds up as a story about Nog, who goes from being annoying and forgettable in Season One to becoming one of the show's most sympathetic characters by Season Seven. His arc - one of the few positive and optimistic arcs in the series - is a testament that DS9 does recognize the fundamental idealism of Star Trek, even if it tends to go darker and bleaker than the other shows in the franchise.
|
|
|
Post by Incandescence 112 on Jan 8, 2018 17:05:28 GMT -8
The final scene of "In the Pale Moonlight" actually gave me chills the first time I watched it. I've seen hundreds of other Star Trek episodes, yet none of them have had that same effect on me. And "It's Only a Paper Moon" gets my vote for Most Underrated DS9 episode. I love how it holds up as a story about Nog, who goes from being annoying and forgettable in Season One to becoming one of the show's most sympathetic characters by Season Seven. His arc - one of the few positive and optimistic arcs in the series - is a testament that DS9 does recognize the fundamental idealism of Star Trek, even if it tends to go darker and bleaker than the other shows in the franchise. The entire episode has a looming sense of doom over it, due to Sisko's line at the beginning: "I can see where it all went wrong". I've seen all the other Star Trek episodes (besides Discovery), and I back up your statement. It's an another level to most Trek episodes, hell, most tv episodes. By the end, Nog was more interesting and relevant than Jake. During the power walk in "Badda-bing, Badda-bang", Nog's there, but Jake isn't. His series arc was great.
|
|
|
Post by Jeremy on Jun 20, 2018 6:53:43 GMT -8
Looks like there'll be more Star Trek TV shows coming soon. CBS has signed a five-year deal with the showrunner of Discovery to produce more shows and miniseries for the franchise.
The great news is that some of those shows might not be limited to CBS All-Access - they may be produced for network, cable, or other streaming platforms instead.
(As you may infer from that above comment, I still haven't seen Discovery.)
|
|
|
Post by Incandescence 112 on Jun 20, 2018 10:41:45 GMT -8
Looks like there'll be more Star Trek TV shows coming soon. CBS has signed a five-year deal with the showrunner of Discovery to produce more shows and miniseries for the franchise. The great news is that some of those shows might not be limited to CBS All-Access - they may be produced for network, cable, or other streaming platforms instead. (As you may infer from that above comment, I still haven't seen Discovery.) The problem is, none of the shows announced sound very interesting. Who wants to see a Starfleet Academy series, or another Wrath of Khan thing? Why is it so hard for them to make a post Voyager show?
|
|
|
Post by Jeremy on Jun 20, 2018 11:08:59 GMT -8
My theory (though it's just a theory) is that CBS is hesitant to expand the Trek world beyond the confines set by previous series and films, because they're afraid of angering fans by taking the franchise's history in new directions. (Similar to the backlash Disney has received for The Last Jedi.) So for the moment, they're sticking to prequels and midquels.
Still, a Starfleet Academy series from Josh Schwartz and Stephanie Savage sounds kinda promising. It could be like The OC... in space!
(Okay, maybe it doesn't sound all that promising.)
|
|
|
Post by Zarnium on Jun 20, 2018 16:02:27 GMT -8
It's a shame that they're afraid to take risks and tread new territory, or that so many fans would cry foul over it, because Star Trek has always improved when the next show was different from the previous installment, and gotten worse when it refused to do so. Next Generation was good because it was different from the Original Series once it got out from under its shadow, and Deep Space Nine was even more different from both and was all the better for it. Voyager, on the other hand, kind of sucked because it quickly turned into a Next Generation clone that refused to push boundaries.
Just imagine how modern-day social media would have flipped out over Next Generation when it was announced. "The Klingons are allies of the Federation now? WHAT??"
There was some of that back in the day, but it was more subdued and easily ignored because the internet wasn't there to encourage its growth and make it louder and more visible.
|
|
Noah
Newbie
Posts: 20
|
Post by Noah on Jun 21, 2018 8:26:40 GMT -8
As a big Star Trek fan, I don't mind them doing new things with the franchise, and I agree that DS9, which is even now still criticized for not really being Star Trek, represented a big departure from TNG. I just finished the first season, watching more of its episodes than I have in a while, and it's actually very impressive. It still has some new show issues, but it's thematically coherent as a season, and has some pretty interesting considerations about whether justice is possible. As a season, it simultaneously develops its characters without wrapping things up neatly, which is perfect, since as far as I can tell, the point of it is that you have to move on somehow even when the past has seemingly damaged you irreparably. The duality between what your past made you and who you are now/can be, as well as the implications of this for law and justice, can be found either explicitly or metaphorically in every important episode of the season, except the finale, which is really more a coda and a set-up for season two. In "Emissary," we have Sisko being unable to leave the moment of his wife's death, and his struggle to move on from that moment ("You exist here") is a rather beautiful reflection of Bajor's struggle with the trauma of the occupation; in "Past Prologue," we get Kira having to decide between who she was, a terrorist, and who she could be, a person of peace; in "Captive Pursuit," O'Brien is able to see a Tosk who is more than what he was bred for, even if he can't see it himself, and O'Brien and Sisko have to struggle with the law, which says they cannot protect Tosk unless he asks for asylum, and justice, which O'Brien takes into his own hands (becoming, not exactly a terrorist, but perhaps a freedom fighter); in "Dax" the entire question is whether or not who Dax now is, Jadzia, can be responsible for who Dax was, Curzon, which is a metaphorical consideration of whether we can actually move on from our past and become someone new, like Dax; in "Vortex," Odo has to decide between holding the guy with the changeling key accountable for his past crimes according to the law, or allowing him to have the possibility of making a new start with his daughter; in "Battle Lines," a war leads to those who fought it being punished eternally, condemned always to fight, which represents Kira's internal conflict which she can only resolve by forgiving Cardassians (which she will begin to do shortly); in "Progress," Kira is now in the position of the Cardassians, harassing defenseless Bajorans with demands to take the resources from the land on which they live, and she has to decide whether the title is sincere or ironic: she is now the agent of law and government, instead of the the agent of vigilante justice against unjust law and government, and its unclear whether she can become this new person and retain her beliefs about justice; the culmination of everything is "Duet," in which the Cardassian is pretending to be the man the old Kira wants to punish, Gul Darheel, but is ultimately revealed to be the a man the new Kira must forgive. It might "feel right," which has been a standard of justice opposed to law up until now (O'Brien feels right in letting Tosk go, Odo feels right banning Ibudan from the station, Sisko feels right defending Dax, the old man on Bajor's moon standing in the way of "progress" feels right about staying put), to punish Marizza, but it would be wrong. At the same time, Marizza tries to use the legal process, a war crimes tribunal, to punish Cardassia to make it acknowledge its crimes, but at the expense of evoking blood lust in the Bajorans and making them into the murderers this time. Which they might be, given the ending of the episode. Kira forgives a Cardassian, an unthinkable thing for her 19 episodes before, and then another Bajoran murders him. The series makes a profound and moving statement about human (and alien) potential forgiveness and compassion, and then shows the opposite right afterwards. That's worthy of Whedon, really. My only complaint is, A knife? Really? They can't fix stab wounds in the 24th century? Anyway, that aside, it's really a wonderful and impressive season, and I think it gets short shrift, including from me in the past, when I usually skipped most of it.
I'd have to really watch Discovery to see how it holds up as another departure from Trek tradition, but I'm a) not really interested in the concept as I understand it, and b) can't stand the few minutes of it I've seen, the actors, the characters, the effects and lighting, or the dialogue. Maybe some day I'll give it more of a chance.
|
|
|
Star Trek
Jun 21, 2018 9:57:42 GMT -8
via mobile
Post by ThirdMan on Jun 21, 2018 9:57:42 GMT -8
That's quite the paragraph you have there, sonny.
|
|
|
Post by Jeremy on Jun 21, 2018 11:50:27 GMT -8
All hail Noah, king of the uber-paragraph.
Like many Trek fans, I consider the first season of DS9 to be the show's weakest - it has too many silly and disposable standalones, and lacks a clear arc for much of its run. But even at that early stage, the show displays signs of maturity not seen by previous Star Trek shows; it's certainly better than the first season of TNG.
I wonder how those early seasons of DS9 would have fared if Ira Steven Behr had been the showrunner from the very first episode, rather than taking over from Michael Piller in Season Three. I expect the series would have begun delving into its more mythological and serialized aspects a bit sooner, although studio pressure might still have prevented them from breaking the Star Trek mold too much, too quickly.
|
|
|
Post by Incandescence 112 on Jun 21, 2018 13:29:06 GMT -8
As a big Star Trek fan, I don't mind them doing new things with the franchise, and I agree that DS9, which is even now still criticized for not really being Star Trek, represented a big departure from TNG. I just finished the first season, watching more of its episodes than I have in a while, and it's actually very impressive. It still has some new show issues, but it's thematically coherent as a season, and has some pretty interesting considerations about whether justice is possible. As a season, it simultaneously develops its characters without wrapping things up neatly, which is perfect, since as far as I can tell, the point of it is that you have to move on somehow even when the past has seemingly damaged you irreparably. The duality between what your past made you and who you are now/can be, as well as the implications of this for law and justice, can be found either explicitly or metaphorically in every important episode of the season, except the finale, which is really more a coda and a set-up for season two. In "Emissary," we have Sisko being unable to leave the moment of his wife's death, and his struggle to move on from that moment ("You exist here") is a rather beautiful reflection of Bajor's struggle with the trauma of the occupation; in "Past Prologue," we get Kira having to decide between who she was, a terrorist, and who she could be, a person of peace; in "Captive Pursuit," O'Brien is able to see a Tosk who is more than what he was bred for, even if he can't see it himself, and O'Brien and Sisko have to struggle with the law, which says they cannot protect Tosk unless he asks for asylum, and justice, which O'Brien takes into his own hands (becoming, not exactly a terrorist, but perhaps a freedom fighter); in "Dax" the entire question is whether or not who Dax now is, Jadzia, can be responsible for who Dax was, Curzon, which is a metaphorical consideration of whether we can actually move on from our past and become someone new, like Dax; in "Vortex," Odo has to decide between holding the guy with the changeling key accountable for his past crimes according to the law, or allowing him to have the possibility of making a new start with his daughter; in "Battle Lines," a war leads to those who fought it being punished eternally, condemned always to fight, which represents Kira's internal conflict which she can only resolve by forgiving Cardassians (which she will begin to do shortly); in "Progress," Kira is now in the position of the Cardassians, harassing defenseless Bajorans with demands to take the resources from the land on which they live, and she has to decide whether the title is sincere or ironic: she is now the agent of law and government, instead of the the agent of vigilante justice against unjust law and government, and its unclear whether she can become this new person and retain her beliefs about justice; the culmination of everything is "Duet," in which the Cardassian is pretending to be the man the old Kira wants to punish, Gul Darheel, but is ultimately revealed to be the a man the new Kira must forgive. It might "feel right," which has been a standard of justice opposed to law up until now (O'Brien feels right in letting Tosk go, Odo feels right banning Ibudan from the station, Sisko feels right defending Dax, the old man on Bajor's moon standing in the way of "progress" feels right about staying put), to punish Marizza, but it would be wrong. At the same time, Marizza tries to use the legal process, a war crimes tribunal, to punish Cardassia to make it acknowledge its crimes, but at the expense of evoking blood lust in the Bajorans and making them into the murderers this time. Which they might be, given the ending of the episode. Kira forgives a Cardassian, an unthinkable thing for her 19 episodes before, and then another Bajoran murders him. The series makes a profound and moving statement about human (and alien) potential forgiveness and compassion, and then shows the opposite right afterwards. That's worthy of Whedon, really. My only complaint is, A knife? Really? They can't fix stab wounds in the 24th century? Anyway, that aside, it's really a wonderful and impressive season, and I think it gets short shrift, including from me in the past, when I usually skipped most of it. I'd have to really watch Discovery to see how it holds up as another departure from Trek tradition, but I'm a) not really interested in the concept as I understand it, and b) can't stand the few minutes of it I've seen, the actors, the characters, the effects and lighting, or the dialogue. Maybe some day I'll give it more of a chance. The only problem with the ending is its execution. For one thing, it's telegraphed half-way through the episode. For another, the actor who plays the bigoted Bajoran is quite awful. You're totally right about its thematic depth, though. It's one of the best episodes in the whole franchise. Are you planning on re-watching the whole series? If so, you should post your thoughts.
|
|
|
Post by Jeremy on Aug 4, 2018 17:41:35 GMT -8
Another Star Trek series has been announced! It will star Patrick Stewart as an older Jean-Luc Picard.
This is not a joke. Nor is it a drill. It is an actual, serious happenstance.
CBS All-Access is suddenly looking a bit lovelier, I don't mind admitting.
|
|