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Post by ThirdMan on Sept 16, 2018 13:39:24 GMT -8
I fall more in line with Jeremy's assessment of the season. While I agree there's plenty of thematic repetition at play, I've felt that since at least Season 3, and recognize it as more of a feature than a flaw. And as with most TV shows, I'm far less concerned with the destination than the journey.
Free Churro is indeed a great episode of television, and I agree that it's made mode powerful by its sort-of interlude nature.
The season's breakdown and analysis of the #MeToo movement is quite sharp and sophisticated, though I'm sure those who only view these issues in shrill, simplistic black-and-white terms (as in, "Men who mistreat women in their lives in ANY way should be culturally ostracized and punished for the remainder of their existence") will try to suggest the show is somehow condoning the behaviour of alleged male perpetrators, and whatnot.
On a side note, how old is Diane supposed to be, anyways? I always had her pegged as a woman in her late-20s, but given her involvement in the 1993 flashbacks (or perhaps I'm misremembering), would that put her in her mid-40s?
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Post by Jeremy on Sept 16, 2018 14:07:32 GMT -8
Diane wasn't in the 1993 flashbacks - she first showed up in the 2009 scenes. (Though even there, the continuity seems a bit wonky - was Mr. Peanutbutter dating her for five whole years before Bojack properly met her in the pilot episode?)
There are probably some folks who will react negatively to the show's #MeToo commentary - but I'll just say that the guy's line in the finale about the "pendulum swinging too far" was one of the funniest moments of the season.
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Post by ThirdMan on Sept 16, 2018 14:41:15 GMT -8
I swear Diane was at least in the 2004 flashbacks, with Jessica Biel, but you're probably right. The timeline stuff with Mr. Peanutbutter (his name in the alternate therapist version ep cracked me up) threw me off as well.
Yeah, that pendulum line was really funny.
All that said, so much darkness in a season that also included characters slipping around on a floor covered in sexual lubricant! And, you know, Sepinwall's new favourite character, Henry Fondle.
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Post by Jeremy on Sept 16, 2018 15:02:56 GMT -8
"Planned Obsolescence" was my least favorite episode of the season, largely because those sex jokes wore thin after a while. Henry Fondle got a few laughs out of me, though.
Bojack draws plenty of praise for its examination of depression and melancholy, and rightfully so, but I think a lot of folks overlook how brilliantly it functions as comedy. Visual humor, puns, background jokes, in-jokes, running gags, satire - you name it, Bojack does it, and does it really well.
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Post by ThirdMan on Sept 16, 2018 15:16:04 GMT -8
I think the one with Princess Caroline's mom was my least favourite, because I quickly tire of Southern archetypes.
While I feel Bojack choking his girlfriend/co-star is possibly the darkest thing he's done, I didn't find the overall season to be the darkest. It does indeed feature a lot of lighthearted comedy as well.
Where do you fall on Mr. Peanutbutter? He's usually depicted as well-meaning, with a good heart, but are his biggest flaws basically his maturity level and short-attention span? Or is he just genuinely, deep-down, shallow and uncaring? I think there's a bit of inconsistency in his depiction that makes me wonder.
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Post by Jeremy on Sept 16, 2018 15:29:13 GMT -8
I think Diane summed up Mr. Peanutbutter's problem very well this season - he just can't seem to grow up. He does seem well-meaning, and wants everyone to have a good time, but also has real trouble facing any substantial consequences. Even upon finding out that his mother is dead, he just copes by trying to lighten things up with his co-stars.
He's always been portrayed the anti-Bojack, but he's got plenty of flaws in his own right.
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Post by ThirdMan on Sept 16, 2018 15:38:00 GMT -8
Hey man, he found out his father was dead as well: cut him some slack! (Anyways, I'd better get on with American Vandal now. How far are you on that?)
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Post by Zarnium on Sept 16, 2018 16:36:03 GMT -8
One of my favorite gags the show likes to do is when a character has something they want to hide that should be very easy to cover up, but circumstances conspire to make it ludicrously difficult. Like Todd's girlfriend's parents being absolute sexaholics who talk about sex constantly, or Princess Carolyn being presented with a million things she has to awkwardly refuse to do when she's trying to hide her pregnancy from her boyfriend's parents.
The Bojack Wiki says she is 38 now, which would have put her at 32 in season 1, which is about what I thought. Though I'm not sure exactly how they verified that. (Isn't it weird how 32 sounds so young, like "just barely out of the twenties," but 38 sounds so much older, like "almost middle-aged?") As for her being with Mr. Peanutbutter in 2009, didn't she already meet him around 2007 while working at a coffee shop or something?
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Post by Jeremy on Sept 16, 2018 16:48:04 GMT -8
Ah, yes... in the "Bojack Horseman Show" episode. Man, this show's mythology has grown complicated. (Anyways, I'd better get on with American Vandal now. How far are you on that?) I've seen the first episode. It looks promising (if pretty gross) so far - hopefully, the show can justify its renewal. Once I'm done with that, I'll probably give Forever another go. And then maybe check out The First? Man, a ton of stuff dropped in the streaming world last Friday.
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Post by ThirdMan on Sept 16, 2018 18:51:46 GMT -8
I'm halfway through AV Season 2, BTW. I might get up to episode six tonight.
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Post by Jeremy on Sept 16, 2018 19:50:14 GMT -8
I just realized that, for many Netflix subscribers, American Vandal will be the, um, #2 show they binge this week.
Suddenly, the dual Netflix scheduling kinda makes sense...
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Post by ThirdMan on Sept 16, 2018 20:17:47 GMT -8
For people who binge-watch shows, it absolutely makes sense.
I'm just trying to go through AV S2 before somebody online spoils it for me. And the eight episodes only average about 30 minutes in length, so it's relatively easy.
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Post by Incandescence 112 on Sept 17, 2018 11:00:11 GMT -8
I now feel confident in calling Bojack the best animated show of this decade, and perhaps one of the best animated shows ever. When do we get Season Five? ONE YEAR LATER: Yep, Bojack Horseman is one of the best animated shows ever. I thought this season was fantastic. It wasn't quite as arc-heavy as some of the earlier seasons, but it had some of the best and most thrillingly experimental episodes the show has ever done. (It probably would work better as a weekly series than a binge, but the story was still effective when viewed through the latter method.) It's fitting that the season ties in so well with the #MeToo movement, since Bojack has always kept one foot (hoof?) in the darker and seedier side of Hollywood. Other shows that have tried to comment on the movement often feel jarring or facile, but Bojack knows how to handle the issue with care, emotion, and humor. And as always, it doesn't flinch when it comes to dealing with the heavier stuff. Good to hear! Hopefully I can finish the season soon. I've only watched 3 episodes. "The Dog Days Are Over" was the best of the three I've seen. I love when Bojack plays around with structure.
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Post by Zarnium on Sept 17, 2018 14:41:55 GMT -8
As far as continued discussion of what I didn't like, I'll just say that while I enjoyed all of the "experimental" episodes on their own, I felt like there were too many all stuck into one season.
What I did think this season did especially well is its handling of the #MeToo craze, simultaneously taking it seriously, poking fun at it, playing it straight, turning it on its head, and exploring all sides. The particularly interesting thing about it is that the biggest players in covering the up the actions of the "bad men" are various women, who all have their own vested interests in doing so, or simply don't seem to care much. I mean, Bojack himself is ready to sacrifice his reputation to do what he believes is right until Gina, the victim, convinces him not to, and Diane's fire and fury towards mysogyny and sexual assault that we've seen several times previously cools down once she realizes that Bojack is involved in it and it's suddenly inconvenient and uncomfortable for her to toss him aside.
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Post by Incandescence 112 on Sept 17, 2018 16:39:48 GMT -8
I fall more in line with Jeremy's assessment of the season. While I agree there's plenty of thematic repetition at play, I've felt that since at least Season 3, and recognize it as more of a feature than a flaw. And as with most TV shows, I'm far less concerned with the destination than the journey. Free Churro is indeed a great episode of television, and I agree that it's made mode powerful by its sort-of interlude nature. The season's breakdown and analysis of the #MeToo movement is quite sharp and sophisticated, though I'm sure those who only view these issues in shrill, simplistic black-and-white terms (as in, "Men who mistreat women in their lives in ANY way should be culturally ostracized and punished for the remainder of their existence") will try to suggest the show is somehow condoning the behaviour of alleged male perpetrators, and whatnot. On a side note, how old is Diane supposed to be, anyways? I always had her pegged as a woman in her late-20s, but given her involvement in the 1993 flashbacks (or perhaps I'm misremembering), would that put her in her mid-40s? I don't really agree. I think it just has a singular thematic focus. No one criticizes The Wire because it repeats the theme of the decay of American institutions. No one criticizes Buffy because of how often it used vampires for metaphors as obstacles to adulthood.
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