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Post by ThirdMan on Sept 17, 2018 16:52:17 GMT -8
Hey, it wasn't really a criticism. But heavy thematic focus over an extended series is inevitably going to result in some degree of repetition.
And while The Wire certainly had thematic focus, it changed the setting and cast of characters pretty drastically from season-to-season to avoid seeming too samey.
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Post by otherscott on Sept 18, 2018 6:41:51 GMT -8
I did like this season of Bojack Horseman. It was insightful as usual about the personal and emotional stakes involved in the #MeToo movement, and how you just have to keep trying to do better and being better and giving yourself another chance, even if you don't deserve another chance from others. And how there's a high likelihood that despite that you just won't be different, you're still the same crappy person you always were.
But there's an inherent problem with telling this story over this many seasons, is that the themes are basically the same with slight alterations, and after a while they start getting a little repetitive. If this were Season 2, I'd probably like it just as much as I did the actual Season 2. But we're on Season 5 now, and Bojack is still the same, and the show is still telling the same stories. And they're good stories, and I'm not saying there's nothing new here, but like the horse itself the show does settle into a status quo. It's very difficult to tell a multiple season long term show about a man/horse that refuses to change, because no matter what happens the end is still the same. He doesn't change. One of the miracles of The Sopranos is the constant ways it keeps that concept fresh and gives new perspectives and new stakes to it. Bojack sadly just doesn't have that same level of flexibility.
I also didn't think the season was quite as funny as past seasons. Evil dentist clowns>Henry Fondler.
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Post by Zarnium on Sept 18, 2018 7:30:48 GMT -8
That's why I think the season would been better and moved the show more towards an eventual conclusion if Bojack had truly been publicly disgraced instead of his transgressions being kept private yet again. We've seen him be punished by his own guilt already, and seen his interpersonal relationships fall apart; we haven't seen him be held accountable by society, or be put in a situation where he can't run away from his problems by simply ignoring the people who know about them.
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Post by Incandescence 112 on Sept 18, 2018 12:28:02 GMT -8
Hey, it wasn't really a criticism. But heavy thematic focus over an extended series is inevitably going to result in some degree of repetition. And while The Wire certainly had thematic focus, it changed the setting and cast of characters pretty drastically from season-to-season to avoid seeming too samey. No worries-apologies if I came off as a little aggressive. Scott-that's a good point about The Sopranos. I would probably agree with you if I actually enjoyed watching it. Unfortunately, on re-watch, I found my views in line with Jeremy's. I respect The Sopranos more than I actually like it.
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Post by otherscott on Sept 18, 2018 13:02:45 GMT -8
Scott-that's a good point about The Sopranos. I would probably agree with you if I actually enjoyed watching it. Unfortunately, on re-watch, I found my views in line with Jeremy's. I respect The Sopranos more than I actually like it. I'm not really sure The Sopranos is a show intended to be enjoyed. I respected it a ton, I think it may be the smartest show to ever air on television. My desire to watch it on a day-to-day basis waxed and waned, but I have to give the show props for presenting an intelligent deconstruction of the American family, if not always a moving one.
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Post by ThirdMan on Sept 18, 2018 15:31:12 GMT -8
To me, The Sopranos was a show that, for the most part, so aggressively tried to avoid melodrama, that it ended up not even delivering drama at times. It typically attempted to find the fascinating in the mundane, but sometimes missed the first part. It could be very compelling, but it could also be very dull.
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Post by Incandescence 112 on Sept 18, 2018 17:51:12 GMT -8
I now feel confident in calling Bojack the best animated show of this decade, and perhaps one of the best animated shows ever. When do we get Season Five? ONE YEAR LATER: Yep, Bojack Horseman is one of the best animated shows ever. I thought this season was fantastic. It wasn't quite as arc-heavy as some of the earlier seasons, but it had some of the best and most thrillingly experimental episodes the show has ever done. (It probably would work better as a weekly series than a binge, but the story was still effective when viewed through the latter method.) It's fitting that the season ties in so well with the #MeToo movement, since Bojack has always kept one foot (hoof?) in the darker and seedier side of Hollywood. Other shows that have tried to comment on the movement often feel jarring or facile, but Bojack knows how to handle the issue with care, emotion, and humor. And as always, it doesn't flinch when it comes to dealing with the heavier stuff. It's now on my short list for the best as well. My absolute favorites would probably be: Adventure Time, Avatar: The Last Airbender, Batman: The Animated Series, Bojack Horseman, Futurama, Gravity Falls, Over the Garden Wall, The Simpsons, The Venture Bros.
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Post by Jeremy on Sept 19, 2018 18:23:20 GMT -8
My Top 10 animated series would probably be Animaniacs, Avatar, Batman: The Animated Series, Bojack Horseman, Daria, Ducktales (original), Freakazoid, Futurama, Gargoyles, and The Simpsons. (I should really watch Over the Garden Wall at some point.)
Also, I agree with everyone who agrees with me about The Sopranos.
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Post by Incandescence 112 on Oct 3, 2018 8:03:42 GMT -8
What I didn't like about it is that it doesn't feel like there's as much continuity between individual episodes or with prior season as there should be, which is partly the fault of how season 4 ended as well. It's also pretty inconsistent with which events it considers to be significant and which it doesn't.
For example, season 5 opens pretty quickly with the reveal that Diane and Mr. Peanutbutter are getting divorced. If this is the case, then why did season 4 end with them making up and putting their relationship back into the status quo? They went through the most trying period of their marriage during season 4, but that plotline wasn't used as a means to break them up. Instead, their breakup is put off until the next season, and the catalyst is never revealed. This makes the already unsatisfying conclusion to their plotline in season 4 pointless, while also weakening the beginning of their season 5 plotline.
There's also the inconsistent use of Skip's character; In the opening episode, he's a manipulative, vindictive jerk who doesn't respect others' boundaries, and he essentially sexually assaults Bojack at one point. After that episode, he's just a harmless goofus who is used for comic relief. So why was his character so dark in the first episode? I got the impression at the beginning that he was going to do something unconscionable to Bojack at some point, and the tables would be flipped and Bojack would be the victim for once, which would be an interesting twist. Instead, none of that momentum is ever used again, which makes me wonder why it existed to begin with.
Furthermore, while "Free Churro" was indeed a great episode that does justice to the storyline with Bojack's mother from the previous season, it's a little weird that her death or impending death was never mentioned before that episode that I recall. As a comparison, in season 1 with Herb's death, for multiple episodes leading up to "The Telescope," there were several mentions that Herb was going to die soon and Bojack wanted to speak with him before it happened, and it both colored his actions before the episode, and built-up suspense for when the episode actually came. The plotline wasn't crammed into one episode with no lead-up.
Philbert's cancellation is also somewhat underwhelming. It's not cancelled because Bojack's incidents with Penny or with Gina are made public, or because he chose to make them public in an attempt to do the right thing. It's cancelled because the sex robot from Todd's wacky misadventure made the company crash. This effectively lets Bojack off the hook again, removing him from tangible consequences and punishing him only with his own guilt like every other season. There was a good opportunity to punish Bojack in a different way this time, but instead it's randomly cut-off at the last minute, deflating the momentum that the Penny and Gina incidents had.
Besides the lack of episode-to-episode throughput, the season is also inconsistent with which events it decides to use for comic relief and which ones it doesn't. This season (and the show in general) takes sexual misconduct pretty seriously, but in the episode where Todd visits the Axolotl family, the mother exposes herself and makes clearly unwanted advances towards him, and it's played for comedy. Objectively, this is all farcical enough that I don't have a problem with it (and, indeed, I found the episode pretty funny), but it's tonally inconsistent with the times when sexual misconduct is played straight. (Plus, like I mentioned earlier, the behavior of Skip towards Bojack is completely forgotten about after "The Lightbulb Scene.") The season also takes Bojack's pill-popping habit and the harmful affects it has on others seriously at the end, but near the beginning, he drives drunk to Princess Carolyn's office and it's played for laughs.
There's plenty I liked about the season, but I think it's also easily the weakest one thus far, and I think it's emblematic of the problems I foresaw this show having early on. It's going to be difficult to write the show to a conclusion and end it at some point, because it seems equally unsatisfying for Bojack himself to either receive redemption and improve himself or fall so far that it completely destroys him, but leaving him in stasis would be an underwhelming note for the show to go out on. Season 5 ends with Bojack in more or less the same place he's been in up to now, with him feeling guilty and hurting the people around him but not receiving much in the way of tangible societal consequences, and with him promising he's going to be better and do the right things, but not having much opportunity to do so. Season 4's ending was encouraging, because it moved Bojack towards redemption and happiness in a believable and satisfying way, and it had me optimistic that season 5 would capitalize on that more. Season 5 had a lot of opportunities to accomplish that by showing how "being good" is difficult and could have a markedly negative effect on his life, but it veers around this without diving in.
"What I didn't like about it is that it doesn't feel like there's as much continuity between individual episodes or with prior season as there should be, which is partly the fault of how season 4 ended as well. It's also pretty inconsistent with which events it considers to be significant and which it doesn't." Even though everyone stopped talking about the season a long time ago, I thought I'd respond to these criticisms. Spoilers below. I can't say I agree with that at all. There are tons of callbacks to previous seasons, from Sarah Lynn's death to the Penny debacle to Hollyhock. One of the most dramatic scenes of the season (and the series) is BoJack and Diane's fight at the end of "Head in the Clouds", and it's basically all about their personal history. "For example, season 5 opens pretty quickly with the reveal that Diane and Mr. Peanutbutter are getting divorced. If this is the case, then why did season 4 end with them making up and putting their relationship back into the status quo? They went through the most trying period of their marriage during season 4, but that plotline wasn't used as a means to break them up. Instead, their breakup is put off until the next season, and the catalyst is never revealed. This makes the already unsatisfying conclusion to their plotline in season 4 pointless, while also weakening the beginning of their season 5 plotline."
Season 4 didn't end with Diane and Mr. Peanutbutter making up or putting . It ended with Diane realizing that despite their love for each other, their personalities are just too fundamentally different to ever have a sustainable long-term marriage ("I'm so tired of squinting"). Their season 5 plot-line is very much in keeping with the conclusion in season 4. "There's also the inconsistent use of Skip's character; In the opening episode, he's a manipulative, vindictive jerk who doesn't respect others' boundaries, and he essentially sexually assaults Bojack at one point. After that episode, he's just a harmless goofus who is used for comic relief. So why was his character so dark in the first episode? I got the impression at the beginning that he was going to do something unconscionable to Bojack at some point, and the tables would be flipped and Bojack would be the victim for once, which would be an interesting twist. Instead, none of that momentum is ever used again, which makes me wonder why it existed to begin with." And he's still a vindictive jerk throughout the season. When Diane first comes on set, he tries to nullify her input. In "The Showtopper", he watches BoJack choke Gina nearly to death and does nothing but order someone to turn the camera back on. Only Mr. Peanutbutter intervenes. That maybe makes him worse than BoJack in my eyes (even though I'm not defending BoJack in the slightest). Flip was entirely sober. "Furthermore, while "Free Churro" was indeed a great episode that does justice to the storyline with Bojack's mother from the previous season, it's a little weird that her death or impending death was never mentioned before that episode that I recall. As a comparison, in season 1 with Herb's death, for multiple episodes leading up to "The Telescope," there were several mentions that Herb was going to die soon and Bojack wanted to speak with him before it happened, and it both colored his actions before the episode, and built-up suspense for when the episode actually came. The plotline wasn't crammed into one episode with no lead-up." They established in "Time's Arrow" that Beatrice was functionally catatonic, and incredibly close to death. I don't think the show really needed any more mentions of her. Your other complaints are fair. They just don't bother me that much. To me this is still the best thing on tv by far. Each season has been better than the last imho, and this one is no exception.I think they'll combat the repetitiveness by focusing on the supporting cast even more-especially Mr. Peanutbutter and Princess Carolyn. Their story-lines will probably go horribly wrong next season, but at least we'll always have Todd (yes I love Todd).
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Post by Jeremy on Sept 27, 2019 10:06:56 GMT -8
Re. my comment on the Western Animation thread: Guess we won't have to wait long after all. The sixth (and final) season of Bojack premieres at the end of next month.
I think, if Season Six maintains the show's usual quality, Bojack has a serious claim to be the best TV show of the decade. Can't wait to see how it all wraps up.
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Post by ThirdMan on Sept 27, 2019 11:45:07 GMT -8
But it'll be split into two halves (the second half in late-January), so even if it comes up short in its last few episodes, it could still be awarded that label.
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Post by Incandescence 112 on Sept 27, 2019 11:54:29 GMT -8
What do the Bojack writers have against honeydew melons? They're better than cantaloupe, honestly.
I'm very interested in Todd and Mr. Peanutbutter's storylines for this season. Todd, because it's great seeing whatever insane plot they cook up for him next. Mr. Peanutbutter's seems like it will have more dramatic weight. No way his new marriage can end well-it'll probably end in a Bojack-style dumpster fire, perhaps in the vein of "The Telescope" or "Escape From LA".
I can't remember a show that fired on this many cylinders for this long. Ever since Season 1, Episode 7, it's been a near non-stop stream of greatness. Other shows may have topped it on your end-of-year lists Jeremy (outside of 2016), but it's been there the past 4 years in a row. I love the hell out of it-best original show on a streaming service ever.
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Post by Jeremy on Sept 27, 2019 12:30:00 GMT -8
Unless I miss my guess, the writers will treat the last season as two "mini-seasons" - each half will be eight episodes long. Given the history of TV shows with split final seasons, I'm... kind of nervous about Season 6A? Please break the trend, Bojack.
The show has had an incredibly good run, but it's too bad the first half of Season One is kind of weak. I recently talked to a friend who claimed that Bojack "sucked," based on his having watched the first 3-4 episodes. I explained to him that the show got much better later on, but he just rolled his eyes, and so I called him some derogatory names and then we changed the subject.
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Post by ThirdMan on Sept 27, 2019 17:05:22 GMT -8
I feel almost compelled to tell people, "Well, listen, a character commits suicide in Episode 7, and then the show becomes a sort of treatise on depression and self-destruction...but it's a fair amount broader in the early going."
It's kind of sad that we even have to resort to such tactics. What, have none of these folks ever seen a show improve drastically over time? Seen The Simpsons? Seinfeld? The Office? Parks and Rec? Neither Mad Men (with the emphasis on Betty, and horrible makeup job on Peggy) or Breaking Bad were at their peak early.
W/r/t Bojack, I think the opening credits do a splendid job of conveying where the show is heading, tone/content-wise. And honestly, the first six eps are perfectly watchable, if admittedly less layered.
And I say that as someone who's never been completely in love with its animation style or the Todd character, who I find a bit too on-the-nose.
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Quiara
Grade School
Posts: 775
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Post by Quiara on Sept 28, 2019 8:34:57 GMT -8
Neither Mad Men (with the emphasis on Betty, and horrible makeup job on Peggy) or Breaking Bad were at their peak early. Actually I feel very comfortable calling the first three episodes of Breaking Bad among the best of the show but ok.
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